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Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: Scott Hunt (174.193.154.---)
Date: August 06, 2018 08:17AM

I’m saving up my hard-earned dollars to purchase my first CTS blank to build. I am Looking to get the SVU1305-2, and I’m going to get one of the painted versions.

When I was getting back into building, and trying to improve, I hooked up with Wayne Fowlkes and he was a huge help to me. At that time I was really struggling with bubbles in my finish. I preferred and was using Aftcote. I was and am still mainly buildings surf rods with under wraps and overwraps. Wayne taught me a technique of the thinning the premixed finish 50-50 with acetone. The idea was that the Thinned finish would penetrate the threads, eliminate most bubbles, and the acetone evaporates, leaving the pre-mixed finish to set up well. This technique really worked well for me and Solved my bubble problems. I know some folks don’t like this type of technique, but again it’s solved my problems and I never looked back.

So here’s the question or concern I have: will the acetone damage or melt the painted finish on the new CTS blanks if I use this technique? I would like to know with certainty before I try it, but I’m not very knowledgeable about paint finishes, the chemistry involved, etc.. I assume that it is this is problematic, I can just use a lighter build finish from that first coat. Thanks so much ahead of time for your help! Scott Hunt

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: John DeMartini (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 09:03AM

Scott

Because this method has worked for you then the issue is the paint finish on the new blank.

Just about every product that cleans, waxes, polishes, etc. there is statement that recommends you try the product on a inconspicuous area and observe its effects.

Not knowing what paint is on the blank it would be prudent to test an area that will be covered by the grip. It will add more time to your build but better safe than sorry.

Good Luck

John

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 10:56AM

Scott,
Yes, a person can do what ever one wants to do with materials, chemicals etc. But, just because one does do things which are unusual, dose not mean that doing these things is really the best way t do a project or complete a job.

I suspect that you have done the research and have decided to do this with your materials.

However, I might suggest, that you just do some materials testing on some scrap blanks and similar items before you do mix up products.

In the case that you have just presented, you have created a chemical quandary for yourself.

You are mixing up a couple of products that - generally speaking - should not be mixed in the quantities presented for the very best final results.

In this case, you are mixing a product that you want to evaporate, with a product that cures by chemical reaction and not by evaporation.

i.e. you want the acetone to evaporate, but the problem is that the finish itself cures by a chemical reaction.

So, although, you get a mixture that appears to do everything that you want, you are creating a situation, where it is virtually guaranteed, that you will end up with raw acetone being trapped in the finish for ever and ever. Of course the reason is simple: The finish cures and skins over before all of the acetone has evaporated. Once the finish skins over it creates a barrier for further material evaporation.

When one reads the literature, I believe that you will find that if acetone is added to a finish before being applied, that the amount of acetone to be added is to be under 1 or 2% , not anywhere close to 50%. The reasoning behind this recommendation, is that with a very small amount of acetone being added to the mix to very slightly thin the mixture will allow time for the acetone to gas off and not end up being part of the mixture.

-------------------------------
Perhaps a better way to achieve the thin finish that you want for your particular technique, is to use a different finish, that - when mixed correctly - is much much thinner than your current product. Yes, there are other products on the market that when mixed are much much thinner than your current product and will achieve the exact result that you wish, without being chemically incorrect and will not affect the finish on the blank and will have a 100% correct chemical cure since there are not products in the mix that need to evaporate during the cure of the material.

Another way to achieve your results, using your current product, but NOT mixing in ANY acetone, is to use gentle heat to thin the product to be as thin as running water to allow full penetration of the mixture into the threads and to achieve a perfect chemical cure without having any negative effect on the finish of the rod blank.

============================

By the way, just as a test, take a piece of graphite or fiberglass blank with no finish on it at all and use the manufacturers recommendations for mixing the product with equal parts of resin and hardener. Apply it uniformly to a to a 6 inch section of the bare fiberglass
or graphite rod.
Then, do your usual mixing of 50% acetone with the product and add it uniformly to a different 6 inches of the fiberglass or graphite rod. Insert the rod in your rod dryer and let it dry for a week.

Now, come back a week later and use a razor blade and also a craft stick to check the appearance, and amount of toughness and hardness of each of the sections of rod that you have finished.

Section A with the manufacturers recommended mixing and application, and Section B with the same mixture except with a 50% by volume of acetone added to the mixture before application.

Please post the results of your testing after you do this experiment and testing. Interested readers would like to know the results of your testing in a carefully controlled test.

Thanks for your time.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 11:00AM

Scott,
Please take the time to read the following MDS information about Acetone.

Please read, understand, and follow the precise recommendations of the words written down in the MDS information:

==============================
[www.labchem.com]

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 12:29PM

not a good idea to use that much as stated by the others to extend the pot life of your finish and I will bet that it will ruin the painted finish on any blank as for the bubble issues you might want to do your under wraps and apply a thin coat of finish let it cure and then do the over wrap and then apply a finish coat of finish.
as for the issues with bubbles it could be several issues the temperature of the area you working in might be to cool and it should be at least 70 degrees or better, over mixing will cause bubbles in the mix and you need to release them before application some pre warm their components before mixing for a couple seconds in a micro wave for a few seconds 3-10 at most and mix and pour it on to a piece of aluminum foil so if there are any bubbles they release.
I my self mix right on a piece of heavy aluminum foil and then tale a disposable lighter to the underside for a couple quick and I do mean quick passes and the bubbles are released and apply with mainly a spatula filling the guide tunnels first so any trapped air or gas can be pushed out before coating the visual side of the wrap while the rod turns in the dryer. on larger rods I have adapted the practice of mixing 2 or more batches of finish when finishing long or big rods as it takes a large amount of finish to coat all the wraps and don't try to do them all at once you need to accurately measure the finish parts equally repeat the steps above and you should always get a good bubble free finish.
temperature is the biggest enemy of finishing a rod if it is to cool that is where you problems will come from you would want it to be 70 - 90 degrees where your finishing or use a tent after applying with a couple 100 watt bulbs or small heater.
here is a video to help hopefully [youtu.be]

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 01:26PM

if the wraps are not sealed, you will have bubble problems..

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 02:32PM

Scott,
Excellent information from one of the most respected manufacturers of epoxy products:

[www.epoxycraft.com]

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: Joe Vanfossen (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: August 06, 2018 03:40PM

[epoxyworks.com]

Take a look at the last figure in the article. Even just a few percent of thinner by volume has a significant effect on the compression strength of the epoxy. The effect is that your finish becomes softer and more spongy as acetone is added. Coating thread with CP is going to have less of an effect on the structural integrity of the wrap than soft finish.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 04:42PM

another thing Joe..i wonder how many rods are out there with thinned epoxy, especially factory rods..do you think maybe these rods absorb water more so than unthinned epoxy, making cloudy wraps which then are blamed on CP if you used it..also in the article, about torching epoxy which makes for brittle wraps and cracks on guide feet..i bet that rang some bells..maybe it isn,t all CPs fault..lol.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.114.---)
Date: August 06, 2018 05:20PM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"In the article, about torching epoxy which makes for brittle wraps and cracks on guide feet"



Maybe i missed the specific section that you read but what i read was that excessive heat tends to cure the epoxy very quickly not that it add's brittleness to the end result . I have never experienced epoxy curing any faster when flaming wraps it always remains soft and seems to take the same amount of time to fully cure but thats just me . Maybe others have had a different experience.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 05:33PM

Herb,
Actually there is very good documentation available on the curing time of ambient temperature with respect to curing time of epoxy.

These charts give a very good illustration of the relationship between epoxy cure time and temperature:

[www.google.com]:

Note the difference in pot life, cure time and full cure time -- verses temperature.

Be safe

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 07:05PM

Herb..sometime ago there was a post about epoxy cracking at a guides toe a nd as i recall one reason given was torching of epoxy to thin it and getting it too hot which caused it to cure too fast and become less flexible..this article sorta reinforced an earlier idea about heat and epoxy.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: Scott Hunt (---.sub-174-193-154.myvzw.com)
Date: August 06, 2018 08:18PM

Thanks everyone for some great advice! Scott

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 06, 2018 10:30PM

Dear Scott,
On the left side of this site you will find the sponsor list - of which I am one. (HNL Rod Blanks - CTS) I am the U.S. Distributor of CTS blanks and I can help you with all your solvent questions and pricing on a blank.
If you wish to avail yourself of this info just shoot me an email - hladen@hotmail.com
Herb

BTW - your email listed on this site is not operational



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2018 10:36PM by Herb Ladenheim.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.114.---)
Date: August 06, 2018 11:36PM

OK, Roger and Ben thanks for the info , much appreciated.

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: William Scott Hunt, III (---.sub-174-193-154.myvzw.com)
Date: August 07, 2018 09:38AM

Sorry everyone, especially Herb: I had been inactive years black and had gotten locked out of my old name and email here and had re-registered under a slightly different name. All of my information, including my email address should be correct from this post forward. Thanks again for everyone’s help.

Thanks,

Scott Hunt
scotthuntemail@gmail.com

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: August 07, 2018 11:54AM

if you do a site search under -torching epoxy- you will find many pros and cons on this practice..under all dates also..

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 07, 2018 07:56PM

By the way, I use heat on my thread finish 100% of the time when I build a rod.
I do not use a torch or flame.
Rather, I use a heat gun passed under the guide to just thin the finish without overheating the guide etc.

Never have had any issue with any finish cracking or similar issues in any of the many rods that I have built over the years.

p.s.
If you look at many of the fishing rod manufacturing videos you will see that many of the manufacturers also heat the finish for final flow out as I do when drying the rod.



Good luck

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---)
Date: August 09, 2018 12:56PM

To answer Scott's concern of Acetone adversely affecting the finish on a CTS painted blank. Short answer is that it will not.
Of course if one continuously applies acetone or DNA to the blank in conjunction with rubbing with a rag or paper towel - there will be some paint deposited on the rag.
The paint that CTS uses is an automotive paint.
There is generally no Clear-Coat applied over the paint as protection because of the added weight.
At this point I do not know how the paint would react in the event that a builder applies heat from a heat gun in the process of removing old thread finish epoxy.

I plan to test that as soon as I buy a heat gun.

Scott and I have had private conversations re above. I am open to anyone else who has questions re CTS blanks.

Herb
Distributer, CTS Rod Blanks

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Re: Acetone on CTS blank
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.76.---)
Date: August 09, 2018 08:52PM

Herb has been fantastic with all the questions i have had , he gets back to you very quickly and is very very trustworthy , no surprises with herb , he's been a pleasure to deal with . I have talked to a few others in the past that deal with CTS blanks but i was not impressed with any of them , Herb is the person to always deal with in my experience.

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