Tom, blank makers don,t give us anything but fast, medium, or slow..no action angles..if you say to a fellow fisherman that your rod has aa of 70*, he gives you a puzzled look...you gotta think in terms of f,m,or s or you don,t communicate.. like you say i use it as a tool to compare rods only for my use..to everyone else it,s fast, med or slow

The point of the CCS is to change all that. A very few blank makers do offer CCS figures. Hopefully more will in the future. If we can do it with temperature and weight, we can do it with rod blanks.

By the way, many fishermen, most even, do not understand fast, medium or slow. They don't understand the difference between power and action. How many times have you heard a fisherman ask for a rod with a "heavy action." No such thing.

..........

it,s not just the everyday fisherman..i don,t know how many times someone uses this site to find a rod and will give a description like heavy action and i,m thinking just give us the cc numbers..it,s rare when they do even rod builders do not..i,d like to see it catch on just with the rod builders Tom..that reminds me.. i moved to another state not too long ago and still have to set up a new cc station..lol.

Tom, I took my categorization of "fast" directly from Hanneman's PDF. Sorry if I mispoke:

"Action Angle
The Action Angle (AA) is a concept developed in the
“Common Cents Approach to Characterizing Fly Rods,”
which will be thoroughly explained shortly. It is based on
the following:
If one positions a rod in a horizontal position and, by adding
weight, deflects the tip downwards, the the non-flexing tip top on
the rod forms an angle which increases from zero towards 90
degrees. If one standardizes the deflection to equal one third of the
rod’s length, the angle formed by the tip top will have the following
relationship to rod action.
Action Angle - degrees
below 59 Slow
59 - 63 Moderate
63 - 66 Moderate/Fast
above 66 fast
Using this approach, one can characterize rod action on
any and all fly rods in a simple manner which allows for
direct comparisons of these rods."

Jon the point is that nobody knows your definitation or if your using Tom,s defination of slow, med., or fast but if you got aa numbers there is no questions about what you mean..

jon tobey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom, I took my categorization of "fast" directly
> from Hanneman's PDF. Sorry if I mispoke:
>
> "Action Angle
> The Action Angle (AA) is a concept developed in
> the
> “Common Cents Approach to Characterizing Fly
> Rods,”
> which will be thoroughly explained shortly. It is
> based on
> the following:
> If one positions a rod in a horizontal position
> and, by adding
> weight, deflects the tip downwards, the the
> non-flexing tip top on
> the rod forms an angle which increases from zero
> towards 90
> degrees. If one standardizes the deflection to
> equal one third of the
> rod’s length, the angle formed by the tip top
> will have the following
> relationship to rod action.
> Action Angle - degrees
> below 59 Slow
> 59 - 63 Moderate
> 63 - 66 Moderate/Fast
> above 66 fast
> Using this approach, one can characterize rod
> action on
> any and all fly rods in a simple manner which
> allows for
> direct comparisons of these rods."


You have misinterpreted Dr. Hanneman's intent. You are not supposed to convert AA numbers back into the very subjective narrative they were intended to replace. Dr. Hanneman was simply giving you an example based on the common vernacular in use so that the user would have some initial idea how the numbers tend to represent. The hope was that such subjective and low resolution terms would fade from use in favor of actual numbers.

..........

If I told a customer that the blank he wants has an action angle of 71 degrees he would probably say Uhh what the heck are you talking about! I would probably reply by saying it means it has a relatively fast action, and I’m sure he would say Oh OK. So subjective terms work when trying to describe something in relative comparative terms. The terms fast, moderate, and slow action, are similar to the comparative terms tall, medium and short, or fat, trim and skinny. They are all relative terms, but they do work when used within a defined context. For the most part we know what these terms mean when comparing things. So precision is not always necessary. Language is a great thing! So do not be intimated by using the terms fast, moderate and slow when describing a blank here on the rod board, most of us know what you are talking about.
Norm

So if your customer tells you that he wants a long rod, about what would that represent in feet and inches?


...............

If Mudhole say the MHX is medium fast and I'm thinking the rod will bend about 1/3 of the way down the shaft, but then I get an AA number that tells me exactly how far it bends down the shaft and I convert that back to the slow-fast spectrum that makes perfect sense to me. When I read Hanneman what I read was: Here is the historical, subjective definition of slow, med, fast. I propose we give a quantitative way to measure this which correlates rod speed with the angle of deflection. So, if a fast rod is supposed to bend 1/3 of the shaft, the angle would be such. As an engineer this makes perfect sense to me. I don't see conflict in putting definition to the numbers.
It's like beer. I can tell you if a beer is hoppy or not, and I can also tell you from the International Bitterness Units scale where two beers would compare (if only we had a maltiness scale to compare to EIN!).
I'm just waiting for the RodGeek folks to chime in with numbers. I mean, they are "geeks" so who should embrace this more?

My point is that when you see the temperature today is going to be 85F degrees, you don't go back to some sort of scale to see if that means it's going to be hot or not - you know what the number represents.

We use numbers to represent rod length, weight, casting lure range, etc., and can do the same with action and power now that we have the CCS.

Of course, whatever you do with it that you find helpful is certainly fine.

...........

Except if my friends from France are visiting and they measure in Celsius they have no idea what 85 means. So I'd tell them the forecast is that it is going to be "Hot." ;-)
I'm sure we are agreeing on all points. As rodmakers we can discuss in data, but for other people we would translate into the vernacular.

if you can,t give me a number you don,t know anything..lol.

If you're going to use that argument, suppose you tell them that the fishing spot you're traveling to is 10 miles away. They may not have any knowledge of "miles" so what would you use for vernacular in that instance? Is 10 miles a short distance or a long distance?

Converting from Fahrenheit to Celsius is still number to number, and would be better than telling someone that 85F is "hot." Depending on where they're from, 85F might not be considered hot at all.

.........

The point I was trying to make is, when objective terms like AA, IP, and ERN are used to compare rods and the person you are talking to has no idea what they mean, then you have to explain them in subjective terms which the person does understands, such as fast and slow or heavy and light. Even-though these terms lack precision they still have meaning when used within a defined context. So the term ‘fast‘ does having meaning when used in the context of rod building, and all of us here understands what it means. Most people understand temperature and length meaurements and can respond precisely when needed, but the terms hot, warm, cool, or cold all have meaning when defined within a given context. Context is important.
Norm

I'd use kilometers! ;-)
Whomever you are talking to, you need to find a common language. Most people have speed and power conflated anyway, but they still think they know what it means. You have to start there.

From the RG site FAQs.

How do your blanks compare to [insert company here]?

Unfortunately, there are no universal standards to describe a blank, so we can’t always say how our blanks compare to another company’s. However, feel free to contact us and we will describe the blank the best we can to help you get a sense for what it's like.

I invited them to the thread.

I suspect they know that there are universal standards for action and power, but prefer not to use them. They would much rather you contact them.

...........

I really enjoy these blanks, especially the xc blanks. Great action, great feel, and will perform to task at hand. I have 731 that I use for flounder and sea bass, 732 that I use for stripe bass and tautog (blackfish), I'm getting ready to build on a 802 blank. Really nice blank. I don't fly fish but I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

Fernando Arellano Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really enjoy these blanks, especially the xc
> blanks. Great action, great feel, and will perform
> to task at hand. I have 731 that I use for
> flounder and sea bass, 732 that I use for stripe
> bass and tautog (blackfish), I'm getting ready to
> build on a 802 blank. Really nice blank. I don't
> fly fish but I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

I agree, teh XC's :) are great for Inshore SW fishing, and a variety of applicatiosn up and down the East coast and Florida. Surprisingly, a lotof catfishermen are using the XC blanks, the relatively lighter tips with crazy power in the back end is something they really like. I