I decided to try the size 5.5 KT running guides on an inshore spinning rod and i'm blown away . When i first got them in i was like "No way , these are microscopic" but after trying them they proved to be awesome . I followed the Fuji KR info on the Fuji website and put in 108" for rod length then 25" from the butt cap to the middle of the spool axle . I then added a 5000 size reel and clicked 14 pound braid .

Gave me a KL-H 20 - 10 -H to a 5.5 M and it said the 20 KL-H should go 21 inches up from the reel axle , i put the 10 H at approx 11 inches up from the stripper and then it said the 3rd reduction guide should be placed about 8 inches up from the 2nd reduction guide so i put the 5.5 M at that location. I continued as it said the 5.5 M should be approx 8 inches away from my chosen choke guide .

I believe i used a 5.5 KB guide for the choke and used KT 5.5 runners all the way out spaced at 5 inch intervals .

Now after reading all the KR info it seems to indicate the more guides the better the sensitivity and casting distance which i don't really buy into , i always believed only use as many guides as absolutely necessary which i currently have 7 runners but i can easily get by with 6 which will still be plenty for proper blank support .

Here's my question , how many have followed the KR data to the letter and after calculating found it to be pretty much dead on with little to no further adjustment needed ? Second question , your opinions on the # of running guides , do you buy only use enough as necessary or do you try to add another even if not absolutely needed ?


Thank you kindly

Works perfectly for me...bwahahahahahahahah

Jim Ising Wrote:
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> Works perfectly for me...bwahahahahahahahah




Yeah , i figured you would be a fan of the KR concept Jim . Now honestly , how much tweaking have you needed to do after following the KR GPS to the letter ? I have found what they recommend has worked brilliantly , i was trying to find something in the guide train as line was peeling off the reel after a cast but it appeared flawless to me.

It's very difficult for me to find differences when very subtle changes are made , a guide moved a bit here or there seems to make no perceptible difference whatsoever from what i can tell . The only noticeable differences with guide layouts that i can see big differences in is based on where you decide to locate the main stripper .

Is there any methods that make it easier to notice the efficiency differences between guide layouts ?

Herb, I do what you're saying with regard to the runners. If you think you need #7 use it , it sounds to me like you don't need it.

I use Norms advice! Thanks Norm! LOL

I think the main thing is to keep the line off the blank when casting, so when using micro guides you need more to do that. Whenever the line comes in contact with the blank it slows the line down due to friction and deviation from a straight line. The straighter you can keep the line the farther it will cast, The other thing you brought up was " how can the rod be more sensitive with more guides?". Take sound for instance; it travels in metal and liquid faster than in air because the more dense material like metal and water have molecules that are closer together than less dense air. If you have more guides on the line, the vibration will travel up the line and rod at a higher velocity giving the feeling of being more sensitive. The old way of putting guides on casting rods. made the line go under the blank between the guides when fighting a fish. If you have enough guides on it, it will never do that. Smaller guides keep the line straighter than larger guides but you need more of them in order for it to work. Now if Fuji would just come down on the prices a little it would make us all happy.

I have found that the KR GPS does a great job of giving you a layout that does not need much tweaking. I like to progressively space the guides between the the stripper and the choke guide and also progressively space the runners, this means that I may move the choke in or out a little bit so the spacing looks right to me. I usually place the first runner about 9 to 10 cm from the tip top, and space from there back to the choke. I static test and test cast my rods and have found that for most of the rods I build ( 6’ to 7.5’) I rarely need more than 9 guides total. I knew the KR concept was a winner the first time I tried it.

Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:
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> I think the main thing is to keep the line off the
> blank when casting, so when using micro guides you
> need more to do that. Whenever the line comes in
> contact with the blank it slows the line down due
> to friction and deviation from a straight line.
> The straighter you can keep the line the farther
> it will cast, The other thing you brought up was "
> how can the rod be more sensitive with more
> guides?". Take sound for instance; it travels in
> metal and liquid faster than in air because the
> more dense material like metal and water have
> molecules that are closer together than less dense
> air. If you have more guides on the line, the
> vibration will travel up the line and rod at a
> higher velocity giving the feeling of being more
> sensitive. The old way of putting guides on
> casting rods. made the line go under the blank
> between the guides when fighting a fish. If you
> have enough guides on it, it will never do that.
> Smaller guides keep the line straighter than
> larger guides but you need more of them in order
> for it to work. Now if Fuji would just come down
> on the prices a little it would make us all happy.


If i want to make absolutely certain the line does not contact the blank i would think the runner spacing will need to be even closer than at 5 " intervals . On my 9 footer ( Pretty fast action & stiff ) which i much prefer , i have 10 guides total not including the tip top.

Double post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 08:23PM by herb canter.

Norman Miller Wrote:
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> I have found that the KR GPS does a great job of
> giving you a layout that does not need much
> tweaking. I like to progressively space the guides
> between the the stripper and the choke guide and
> also progressively space the runners, this means
> that I may move the choke in or out a little bit
> so the spacing looks right to me. I usually place
> the first runner about 9 to 10 cm from the tip
> top, and space from there back to the choke. I
> static test and test cast my rods and have found
> that for most of the rods I build ( 6’ to
> 7.5’) I rarely need more than 9 guides total. I
> knew the KR concept was a winner the first time I tried it.


Thanks Norm.

I think Lance was thinking about casting rods, and may have misunderstood the original post. If not Lance, I appologize.

Herb, if I'm being honest here I don't even use GPS for KR any more. I've built so many I pretty much know what the results will be. But keep in mind that I developed the software, so I did months of experimenting and building and working with Fuji before going "public". Fuji's basic info was well researched, I simply looked for commonalities and ways to quantify what they were feeding me.

Over time, I developed a "cheat sheet".

For 2500, 3000 and sometimes 4000 Series reels with very similar spool size I start with a stripper at 19" from the tip of the spool axle (learned through trial and error).

For anything up to 20# braid I will default to a size 20 stripper (20 for 20). The group of guides I use is very easy - the guide after the stripper is half its size. So for the 20 stripper the next guide is a 10 (for the 25 it's a 12 and for the 16 it's an 8). The next guide is a 5.5M - always unless you are casting huge knots and need a 6 or 7.

The choke is always a KB and I put it the same distance from the stripper as the stripper is from the spool axle tip. Read that again until you understand it - it makes everything SO SIMPLE. If it's 19 to the stripper...it's another 19 to the choke. If it's 20 to the stripper it's another 20 to the choke.

I tie the stripper in place (I use nylon ties so I can move the guide a little bit without taping - I hate tape), then tie the choke in place. I already know my group (half the stripper size and then the 5.5M - remember) so it's a simple matter of placing the 10 and the 5.5 to bullseye between the stripper and choke.

Then I go out in the yard and cast and tweak and cast and tweak and cast and tweak and realize I can't make it any better than it was and go back in and start wrapping.

A KR Spinning rod is WITHOUT A DOUBT the easiest rod you will ever lay out and the performance, as Herb has discovered, is off the charts!

I completely agree with Jim, that once you understand what the KR concept is all about it becomes very easy to set up, and it yields exceptional performance. I also do not use the KR GPS any more, but it is a great starting place for someone who is new to setting up a KR concept spinning rod. Here are two articles from Anglers Resource that will help those who want to make a KR concept rod and think it is too complex.
[d19cgyi5s8w5eh.cloudfront.net]
[anglersresource.net]
Copy and save these articles.
Norm

I noticed that the KR GPS, with all things equal other than line type, the stripper guide moves out/in an inch (e.g., 19in for braid and 20in for 10lb mono). Jim/Norm based on your "simplification" process above, should line type be ignored in the stripper distance? I'm guessing the one inch doesn't have a major impact, but I haven't tested enough setups to make a real judgement.

Thanks for shedding some light on simplifying the concept. I think the concept is great and all my KR rods perform fantastic.

Excellent info , whats the furthest you have positioned the stripper for a KR layout ?


The below says the furthest is 23".


Note: In our own research we have found that for rods from 6'9" to around 7'6" a stripper position near 19-inches seems to provide the best performance with 2000 to 3000 Series reels. Our go to stripper position for a 7ft Medium action rod is 19.5 inches - a little less (18.5 inches) for shorter rods and a little more (21 - 23 inches) for longer rods.


Say you have a 10 foot rod you're still not going past 23" on the stripper ?

I think the key to that statement is 2000-3000 sized reels. On a 10ft rod with a 2 or 3k reel you probably wouldn't need to go out past 23". On something like a steelhead rod throwing under an ounce it would be fine in most cases. On a 10' surf rod you wouldn't use a 2 or 3k reel. Most likely a 6k reel throwing 2 or 3oz. With something like that you'll want to push it out some.

brian rossi Wrote:
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> I think the key to that statement is 2000-3000
> sized reels. On a 10ft rod with a 2 or 3k reel you
> probably wouldn't need to go out past 23". On
> something like a steelhead rod throwing under an
> ounce it would be fine in most cases. On a 10'
> surf rod you wouldn't use a 2 or 3k reel. Most
> likely a 6k reel throwing 2 or 3oz. With something
> like that you'll want to push it out some.


The KR GPS has the KL-H 20 positioned at 21" even if you're using a 5000 size reel and up to 20 pound braid so rod length seems to be irrelevant .

herb canter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> brian rossi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think the key to that statement is 2000-3000
> > sized reels. On a 10ft rod with a 2 or 3k reel
> you
> > probably wouldn't need to go out past 23". On
> > something like a steelhead rod throwing under
> an
> > ounce it would be fine in most cases. On a 10'
> > surf rod you wouldn't use a 2 or 3k reel. Most
> > likely a 6k reel throwing 2 or 3oz. With
> something
> > like that you'll want to push it out some.
>
>
> The KR GPS has the KL-H 20 positioned at 21" even
> if you're using a 5000 size reel and up to 20
> pound braid so rod length seems to be irrelevant .

What about the surf guys using 30 or 40lb braid? As I understand it kr gps is designed to work optimally with rods in the 6'-7'6" range. It most definitely works on longer rods but the program starts to hit a "grey area" once you get out around the 9' rod 5k reel with 20-30lb braid area.

I agree 100% .

Brian is correct that 23” max is for 2000 - 3000 series reels, and this distance can be pushed further out when using larger reels. As a general rule, I have found that the heavier the line and/ or the larger the reel, the larger the stripper needs to be and/or it’s moved further away from the spool tip. So for me the stripper position and choke pt is based more on line and reel size rather than rod length. Jim’s method of placing the choke pt approximately at the same distance from the stripper as the distance from the spool to stripper, is very easy and works quite well. I tend to push the choke pt a little further out by an inch or two. I have noticed that the KR GPS program places the choke point even further out. I think the KR GPS calculates the choke distance from the stripper as being about 0.45 X the distance of the stripper to the rod tip. This distance will change based on the length of the rod beyond the reel spool. This 0.45 x method also works very well. For example, with Herb’s build the GPS placed the choke pt about 27” from the stripper, rather than 21” or 22” that Jim or I would use.
After what I thought was optimal spacing based on on static testing and test casting, I found that when I pushed the line against the bottom of the spool I got a straight line from the bottom of the reel spool to the choke and another straight line from the choke to the tip top with the line touching the bottom of each guide. To me this was a good way to visulize a well performing guide train.
Norm