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ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 10:47AM

Most anglers seek guide spacing for maximum casting distance. How rod builders for champion distance casters determine optimum guide placement? Will they share their hard data and experience?

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: March 12, 2018 10:56AM

Most will tell you that what they use for maximum distance won't work on a rod that is intended to be fished. I was talking to Tommy Farmer at the Expo and he said he tapes his guides on so can move them around depending on what he needs to do with various reels, etc.

..............

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 12:28PM

competition casting is a different thing than fishing as the weights are consistent everyone uses the same weight where the lures you use differ in weight
when you build a rod for fishing you seek the middle of the road point and the rod will work well with either the light side bait /lure or the heavy side.

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Dennis Danku (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 12:48PM

Distance is required by surf fishermen but, you still have to fight what you hook.The real sharpies of the surf use larger and less guides to get that distance.

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 01:06PM

If distance is NOT the determining factor in guide spacing what is - Reel size, Casting weight, Line stiffness, Fish fighting, Strength, Looks, some combination of or all of these factors? I see guide placement specifications dictated in small fractions of an inch without any clue as to what requirement(s) these exact distances satisfy.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 02:33PM

all of these factors Reel size, Casting weight, Line stiffness, Fish fighting, Strength, play in to guide placement and they equate to distance but because you may not use the same weight every time and we know that fishing conditions change guide placement is a general thing that gives you the best for the difference in conditions you will encounter fishing different waters

distance is determined from the resistance the line used applies to the cast the line being mono might not achieve the distance that braid of the same break strength would achieve because of line diameter.
as Dennis stated the sharpies use larger and less guides back to the cone of flow principle for casting with spinning gear.
spinning set stripper say a 40-50 followed by a 30 or 25 then a 20 a 16 -12 and 10 for runner to a 10 tiptop ring
using the spool size to determine the placement of the stripper and building from the bottom up with a load test tweaking the rest of the guides to the tip the stiffer the blank the further apart you can place the guides after the stripper with in a reasonable distance with out causing sharp angles in the line from guide to guide.
what I posted above is real old school building from the 50-60's when you could get a blank 10 - 15 ft. in length all glass and real large dia butt and tip's of 12 - 20 , 64's you have got to remember that back then ceramic guides weren't made yet all you had was ss frame& ring or the old spiral style guides.
Casting set ups most were a 20 followed by 2-16 and 12 's to the tip again a load test set the stripper

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: herb canter (---.dsl.atmc.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 04:00PM

The only real differences i have noticed from repeatedly test casting and also studying what those hulk like guys who throw for distance is :

# 1 - Typically a longer distance than most regarding reel to stripper distance.

#2 - Reduction guide trains spaced a bit longer than typical

#3- Fewer running guides which are spaced 8 - 11 inches apart .


My conclusion: The biggest determining factor in regards to using a spinning reel is as always it's spool design and oscillation type , line type and diameter , how long a rod you use and the individuals casting technique and ability . I have seen very little differences that moving a guide an inch or two in this direction or that direction makes much of a difference either way . The other factors have a much larger impact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2018 04:02PM by herb canter.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 05:44PM

The answer is different for each type of rod, ie. bass, fly, surf, etc. There is no exact formula ! As a fly rod builder, I focus on the application. Is it going to be a light rod for short casts to trout in a stream? Or, is it long casts on large rivers for Northwest Steelhead? The answers are as different as the applications. Distance casting is not the most prevalent in fly fishing, accuracy and presentation can be much more important for many types of fly fishing.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: herb canter (---.dsl.atmc.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 06:52PM

I responded based on the first post which was " How rod builders for champion distance casters determine optimum guide placement" but Phil is right , if you're talking about all the different types of fishing people do casting distance is generally very low on the list of importance.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: March 12, 2018 10:38PM

I also do not understand how guide placement determines accuracy? Your line, bait, lure or fly will follow the path of your rod tip at the moment of release, not the arrangement of your guide train. As long as your rod ferrules and tip-top are not loose and moving around if you can manage the same release with each cast your rod will cast in the same direction with each cast. Accuracy is completely up to the angler, not the guides.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: herb canter (---.dsl.atmc.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 12:13AM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also do not understand how guide placement
> determines accuracy? Your line, bait, lure or fly
> will follow the path of your rod tip at the moment
> of release, not the arrangement of your guide
> train. As long as your rod ferrules and tip-top
> are not loose and moving around if you can manage
> the same release with each cast your rod will cast
> in the same direction with each cast. Accuracy is
> completely up to the angler, not the guides.


Guide sizes, ( Rings) have a big impact on accuracy especially with thinner braids but how they're positioned along the blank to a much lesser degree. The less room your line choice has to move around inside a ring, ( without obstructing optimum flow) the more accurate that cast is capable of being which also includes the tip top of course.

I don't see nearly as much correlation between how they are laid out but closely spaced small runners and tip top would make sense if accuracy was the # 1 goal.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 10:28AM

Only the tip-top is physically able to impart direction to a cast. You can't push a rope (or a braid). The line only touches one small part of the tip-top at the moment of release,so the diameter of the tip-top has nothing to do with accuracy. The direction the tip-top is traveling (pulling line) at the moment of release is the direction the lure/bait/fly will go. Neither the diameter of the tip-top or the running guides has anything to do with accuracy. The laws of physics dictate the results of rod-building.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 11:53AM

Phil, what you say is quite true for fly rods, not necessarily so, for other types. When casting weights that are at the end of the line and very often cast in an arc.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: herb canter (---.dsl.atmc.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 12:46PM

I don't fly fish so my accuracy comments don't apply to those but i stand 100% behind my comments on spinners which is what i was referring to.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 01:58PM

No matter what type of line, reel, or rod you are using the instant you release your line the direction and trajectory of your cast is determined. You can only change distance or direction by grabbing the line as it passes up the guide train. You still can't push on a rope.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: March 13, 2018 02:20PM

Phil Ewanicki ..... think about what you said in the second to last sentence of your most recent post ........ you sure about that?

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---.lightspeed.lsvlky.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 04:56PM

If I could find snake guides that could calm the wind on command, my casting accuracy would improve significantly..

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 06:22PM

David: Once you release the line at the end of your cast the only way you can change where it's headed is to pull on the line again. You can't push it, and guides won't help. That's my story and I'm sticking to it

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: Robert A. Guist (---.dhcp.embarqhsd.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 06:50PM

Hello Phil.

What happens when you change where your Tip is pointing?


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

Bridgeton, NC.

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Re: ask a pro
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: March 13, 2018 07:07PM

is a double-haul one or two casts in one?.lol.

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