I am a beginner rod builder, so this may just be a terrible idea. If so, no mercy, let me know.

I was thinking about developing a heavier/stiffer tip on my 10' 4wt, kind of bringing the bend further down into the rod to assist in roll casts and have a bit more mass/momentum up top to help really move line.

I was told by a "veteran rod builder" to increase the length of thread wraps on the upper guides. This would increase mass and help stiffen up the top section of my rod once epoxied.

Any advice on how long to increase the wrap length by? (wrap length on the other guides is about 5/8") Any advice on how many guides down from the tip top to do this to?



Once again if this is a stupid idea, let me hear about it.

Thanks

Johnny

Whoa there, John. Let's think about this.

As a general rule, adding weight is not such a good idea, and adding weight way out at the tip is an even less good idea. It does nothing for you in terms of damping and it's really doubtful you'll realize any casting benefit.

As for wraps stiffening a rod, that is at best a definite maybe. I suppose if you greatly extended tip section wraps it would be possible to marginally stiffen the tip, but the downside would be additional weight, which would tend to make the action slower - not faster.

If you just got to increase (speed up) a rod's action, think about trimming an inch or so from the tip. Trimming the tip will increase the rod's action (make it faster) but could have its own downsides, not the least of which might be voiding any blank warranty.

It's your rod to build as you please. But I'd think a bit more before committing to excessively long wraps and their weight.

John,
What rod and especially what line are you using on it? I'd try sorting out the problem with correct line selection before I'd look at the rod. Like everything else some lines work better for certain situations than others.

have to agree with Spencer has said head to the pro shop and shop the lines and if you not sure ask they should be able to get where you want to go and do with the rod adding wraps is only going to make a good rod tip heavy and cause it to be like the old parabolic action rods where they flex in waves making it hard to cast and control as it flexes in waves.
a different line will give you what you want remember the 4 wt line size isn't set in stone you can always go lighter or heaver but that is just my humble opinion

Spencer Phipps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
> What rod and especially what line are you using on
> it? I'd try sorting out the problem with correct
> line selection before I'd look at the rod. Like
> everything else some lines work better for certain
> situations than others.

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

Donald - Thank for the input. I really am only a beginner builder, so I have no expertise to speak from. That being said, I am a mechanical engineer, so i have some idea of the physics and mechanics.

Maybe i don't have an accurate relativity as far as added weight goes, but does a half inch more of thread wrap on both feet of, say, 4 guides for example really add that much weight?

I do understand that it will slow the rod down, not speed it up. Will that added mass at the end help provide momentum in, say, a roll cast? i would imagine the added weight and stiffness up top would bring the bend down and therefore bring out the strength of the lower section(s) of the rod. It's a "high lake rod" for situations in which a back-cast isn't often an option.

I am for sure thinking long and hard about it and asking experts like y'all before committing.

Spencer - It is a 4wt 10' blank from Mudhole MHX series. Now that you mention it, maybe i would be able to accomplish the same thing by just using a 5 or 6wt line with the rod. Although that would cancel out my idea of adding momentum being swung by the lower, stronger section(s). Explicit answer: I don't have a line chosen yet. Open to suggestions.

Thank you both. Appreciative of any type of criticism

Add a couple of wraps of masking tape over your guide wraps and try it.

wow, that is a really good idea.
Over the guide wraps or on either side of them? the weight would be added to either side. This would be a great way to test out the added weight-not necessariy added stiffness, so would you agree with Donald La Mar (1st response) that i shouldn't count on any added stiffness?

No, more and longer wraps will soften the rod which decreases its speed (action remains unchanged - don't confuse action with speed). Speed is reaction and recovery time. Power is stiffness, sort of. Action is where the rod initially flexes.

You can't add weight to a rod in order to stiffen it - that's the opposite of what happens. Longer wraps will soften the rod and reduce its speed.

...........

Call Mud Hole and ask for Todd he will know............

John,
As an Engineer look at the affects of polar moment of inertia and fly wheels.
Adding weight to the end of a spring driven system reduces velocity of the tip.
A rod is a spring allowing the input of potential energy as the hand is rotated. This torque is transmitted to kinetic energy through blank deflection to the tip of the rod. The energy input by the hand is fixed in velocity versus time. The rod tip must travel much further and take a longer period of time due to the inertia of the blank, the inertia of the guides and the inertia of the line with overhang.
To assist in roll casting the total inertia should be reduced. Lighter guides with less wraps will decrease the driven inertia. Lighter fly line weight will also decrease the inertia allowing more velocity of the rod tip and greater roll cast ability. This has the additional affect of requiring less input torque for a given tip velocity.
The use of tape to add weight will demonstrate the affect. Start by adding the weight to the tip top for the fastest results. As the weight is added closer to the hand, the results will diminish.

Gene

Gene, thank you. I'm starting to understand this in more depth. Not meaning to argue, but rather discuss...

A rod could be compared to a spring whos stiffness value increases down from the tip. If i reduce the amount of bend in the upper section, 'i would think' (<- keywords) i would develop a more focused flex point lower in the rod, i.e. at a point with a higher stiffness value. Am i going to receive more strength from lower in the rod where the flex is more concentrated? or is that asking to break the rod at that point where the flex is concentrated? would that theory be wasting the strength of higher up by losing it entirely, or am a replacing it with more strength input from lower in the rod?

Thank you all for the input. I appreciate it all.

John,
Correct the stiffness is not linear. The rod deflects from the hand to the tip. The deflection increases due to rod load. The affect is cumulative over the deflected length. You can't change the deflection characteristic of the basic beam. It's built into the blank as a function of OD versus ID over the length of the taper. The load accumulates more deflection the further away from the support (hand). The amount of deflection increases toward the tip under any load including the combined weight of the blank, guides and line. Inertia is a function of mass at a distance.
Acceleration of the accumulated masses creates loading at each inertial point. Between each guide the only support to transmit force is the stiffness of the blank between those points. To increase rod tip velocity you must decrease accelerated load. If you assume the wrapping as a way to stiffen the blank you should look at the wrapped length versus the distance between the guides. You will add a slight stiffening, but the weight added will increase deflection loads under acceleration. Since the blank handles all loading the effects are accumulated.
Fewer guides, lighter guides, less supported line mass, stiffer blank, stiffer blank material, greater blank taper, reduced blank length are all ways of increasing overall dynamic stiffness (less blank deflection).
You can increase fly rod tip speed through a correctly timed "haul" even in a roll cast. This will apply more load into the stiffer portion of the rod while reducing load at the rod tip. The flex is not "concentrated" rather it's distributed along the blank length by the blank taper.

Gene

Thanks Gene. Soved. Not gonna make longer wraps.