I know lite epoxy is the standard for doing transparent wraps with silk, but I was wondering if anyone has used regular threadmaster of flex coat to do transparent wraps. Thinning 1:1:1, I assume.

THe bottom 2 are Nylon wiht no CP, with TM [www.rodbuilding.org]

Actually, warm varnish is the standard for making transparent wraps with silk. It can be done with epoxy but requires thinning and most often with denatured alcohol rather than epoxy so that the solvent doesn't evaporate too quickly, before the epoxy has time to penetrate entirely.

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Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Actually, warm varnish is the standard for making
> transparent wraps with silk. It can be done with
> epoxy but requires thinning and most often with
> denatured alcohol rather than epoxy so that the
> solvent doesn't evaporate too quickly, before the
> epoxy has time to penetrate entirely.
>
> .............

Sorry I wasn't clear. After searching around it seems like most people use lite epoxy, 1: hardener, 1: resin, and 1: acetone/DNA.

What I'm trying to find out is if using regular epoxy and thinning it the same proportion is viable or do I need to get lite epoxy.

The idea is to use a thin mixture so the lite epoxy is generally better. However, not to say it can't be done with the standard viscosity. As long as everything penetrates fully prior to setting or the solvent evaporating, you'll be okay. If you work fairly quickly, you should be fine.

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As Tom said, Warm Varnish is one way.

I have used Threadmaster Lite with great success without thinning it to get transparent wraps. The color of the silk used depends on the color of the blank. If you are using a "clear" fiberglass blank, like a McFarland, white silk will go totally invisible, it does not even look like thread was used.

If you have a solid color or semi translucent blank, "natural silk" or very light tan silk will give you the same result, depending on the brand of silk. White Silk from my experience on these blanks does not go clear, it actually looks awful due to the base color of the blank, the thread will look "spotty" if you can picture that. My best results have been with YLI Natural Silk for most blanks, but some Light Tan looked better.

While I have not used regular build TM or Flex Coat, your best bet is to buy several spools of silk and do some test wraps, YLI Silk, Clover and the house brand Silk at Anglers Workshop are stuff I use pretty regularly. Each brand has its perfect mate in a blank color, like I said, do some test wraps.

One other key point, the first coat really needs to penetrate, so a very light coat of the regular build might work just fine for you.

Enjoy

I many times use white silk thread and regular viscosity epoxy, thinned to an almost water consistency with DNA for the first coat. Allow to cure for at least 24 hours then coat with regular epoxy. Wraps completely disappear!

I have done this on Bamboo and colored graphite rods.

Phil Erickson Wrote:
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> I many times use white silk thread and regular
> viscosity epoxy, thinned to an almost water
> consistency with DNA for the first coat. Allow to
> cure for at least 24 hours then coat with regular
> epoxy. Wraps completely disappear!
>
> I have done this on Bamboo and colored graphite
> rods.
Phil, what ratio do you thin at?

I'm on the fence of ordering epoxy, but part of me thinks just thinning regular appropriately will get it thin enough.

Regular will work.
Do some guides and stop when it start to thicken (and do a new mix to continue).

The ratio can be as high as 1:1:1 but the less acetone or DNA the better, if your epoxy run like water at 1:1:0.5 you will be ok.

________________________________________
@+
Eric
[www.emfishing.fr]

I am admittedly much more familiar structural (basically 4 to 1 by weight) epoxies than the 1 to 1 varieties typically used in rod building. I am amazed so many thin these epoxies with acetone or DNA = I would never consider it for structural composites. While I am certainly not implying you are wrong, I am curious as to any ultimate ramifications thinning these rod building epoxies might create. I am here to learn, not accuse.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thinning epoxy with a solvent does indeed affect its final structural properties. This often manifests in checking or cracking at some point. This is one reason why epoxy formulators do not recommend thinning an epoxy.

In this case, the OP is trying to achieve a certain look which he's not going to get with straight epoxy. Since this is not quite a structural application, the eventual structural characteristics of the epoxy is not his priority.

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Epoxy cracks anyway, and Flex Coat does in fact recommend thinning on their site Tip #12 [flexcoat.com]

In a previous post John Cates of Flexcoat mentioned that many rod manufacturers using Flex Coat will thin the first coat with acetone to get quicker penetration of the threads. The proportions he mentioned was 15:1 of mixed epoxy to acetone, I.e. 15 ml of mixed epoxy to 1 ml of acetone. For a smaller amount, 6 ml of mixed epoxy would require approximately 8 drops of acetone. (25 drops is about 1ml). He also mentioned that thinning will increase pot life and prolong curing time, and also mentioned that thinning was only done for the first coat.

I personally do not thin epoxy, but I do trust what John Cates says and what many rod manufacturers do concerning the thinning of epoxy.
Norm

Billy Vivona Wrote:
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> Epoxy cracks anyway, and Flex Coat does in fact
> recommend thinning on their site Tip #12
> [flexcoat.com]
> t-finish/helpful-tip

I'm not talking about the hairline crack that often happens at the end of the guide foot, but overall checking of the finish. There are some posts in the archives here from Ralph O'Quinn that describe it and why it sometimes happens.

Flex Coat is not an epoxy formulator.

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Not to swim up stream - But i have been thinning Flex Coat UV for years -- BUT --- I thin with a lacquer thinner -- ( medium temperature ) -- thinner it will not evaporate as quickly and cuts the finish well Thinners come in three types - Fast - medium - and slow - The medium works well if your place is HOT 90 - cool it off to hot let the finish stay wet as long as it can - Mix well I use about 3 - 5 drops in a CC - Of the HIGH BUILD
Experiment There is a little learning curve

Bill - willierods.com

Matt, to answer your question regarding ratios, I do not measure, what I do is mix the two epoxy parts (regular Threadmaster) then drip DNA into the mix until I get the consistency I want, somewhere between water and syrup.

I only thin the initial coat to assure complete penetration, this provides the clarity, with very minimal build up. then another coat of regular epoxy for bonding and appearance

As I mentioned above, be sure to let the initial coat cure thoroughly so that the DNA has vented off.

I have had customers swear that I didn't use thread on these wraps.

40 years, thousands and thousands of rods built with thinned first coats....no issues

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

Something to consider- I build mostly big game rods and will always add a thin coat of epoxy to my underwraps. One time I did not have any "lite" epoxy so thinned my underwrap coat with acetone to get the thinness I wanted. The top coat on the overwraps was not thinned. The wraps were white with blue inlays. Over a few months I noticed that the portion where the underwrap showed had turned darker amber than the overwrap which only had the unthinned epoxy on it. I later talked to somebody at System Three I think it was and they said the acetone may have destroyed the UV protectors that were in the epoxy. That is why only the underwrap portion turned dark. Both actually turned a little amber but the underwrap part was worse. So my concern would be that even if your silk wrap goes transparent will the epoxy amber enough that it is obvious that it is there? I know the thread color may also have something to do with this. Maybe thinned varnish is the way to go?

Matt Bregartner Wrote:
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> I know lite epoxy is the standard for doing
> transparent wraps with silk, but I was wondering
> if anyone has used regular threadmaster of flex
> coat to do transparent wraps. Thinning 1:1:1, I
> assume.

It would be a simple experiment to find out what you want to know. Just try it on a sample stick with a single wrap. That way when you do it on the actual project there won't be any surprises and therefore no do-overs necessary.

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