I posted about this issue I'm having a few weeks ago and got some very good advice...Just as a review:

The last several rods I've done have had a handful of "divots" in the finish. Essentially, these are tiny spots of what seems like crystalized, uncured epoxy; the spots are "cloudy" and when I press on them, they get cloudier and the "cloud" seems to spread.

Agreeing with what was offered to me here, I thought these were caused by crystals in the finish, as I had been battling those in the old FlexCoat I was using and my syringes. I threw out the old FlexCoat and bought new; I used new syringes and stirring stick; I wiped everything down. The next rod came out with none of these spots.

However, the next two rods have seen them return. Because of this, I don't believe it's crystals.

As I said earlier, I've never had this problem before, and the ONLY thing that has materially changed in my rod building lately is that I've started using an American Tackle power rod wrapper I was given for Christmas; before December, I'd happily never seen these "divots."

Here's what I suspect the problem is, but I have a coupe questions about it.

I assembled the wrapper at Christmas BUT, the bearing on the shaft of the lack plastic "drive disc" (don't know the technical name-the large, plastic pulley where the belt slips into) has a bearing that slides into a hole in the ack plastic arch support that's bolted to the base. This bearing has never fit snugly and always has a wobble in it; in fact, there are times it has slipped out of the hole while turning. I left it this way, however, because I could find no instructions regarding its assembly and no other way for it to fit.

After the latest failed finish attempt yesterday, I began to wonder if the wrapper could be the problem. Today, while cleaning everything again, I noticed black "dust" or shavings at the base of the chuck and motor that feel like they have some oil in them; I assume this is black plastic being worn off somewhere. I popped the drive disc out of the arch and noticed the bearing has some lubrication on the surface.

It seemed to confirm my suspicion, namely that, somehow, the wrapper was spewing oil in the air while I turned the rod during epoxy application.

So, there's my suspicion...Here's my question(s)...Has anyone had this problem before, and if so, was it fixable? Also, have I misassembled the wrapper, since the bearing wobbles a lot- should that bearing be more enclosed or at least more snug? (The instructions were not terribly comprehensive nor detailed).

Any experience with this or any thoughts would be extremely helpful; I'm seriously going nuts trying to figure this out...

Thanks very much.

Steve

Steve -
I never had that problem with the bearings or the drive shaft . So I can't be of any help to you in that regard. However, I was so annoyed by the imprecise nature of the support stand, pulley wobble etc that I purchased an ALPS chuck which comes with in integral set of drive pulleys and multiple drying pulleys. I've never looked back or regretted that decision. Probably the best $120 I've spent on wrapping equipment.

I doubt that's your problem, but I suppose you have to start looking somewhere. Maybe do a test wrap and dry the section on a stand other than your power wrapper and see if the problem persists. If it only happens on the wrapper, then go back and search in that direction.

...........

Steve

i too use an ATC power wrapper, but have not experienced you problems for finish or or a wobble of the drive belt pulley, which wobble ought not be. I had a problem with damage to one of the aluminum bases and Mudhole arranged for a replacement. If you've got wobble now it is not going to get better with time, so suggest you contact the retail for a replacement, repair or other adjustment.

The black dust you found could be the result of excessive drive belt wear, especially so if the drive pulley is out of alignment due to the wobble. I have some black dust after several years of use - not a few months.

However, cannot imagine lubricant or drive belt dusk being propelled the length of a rod, so my questions are: are the finish flaws confined to ares nearest the drive pulley or do they exist for the length of the rod, and; anything in your work environment that might be spraying anything (HVAC vents, spouse dusting furniture, plug in air fresheners, etc., etc.)?

Maybe try making a white construction board "shield" parallel to the drive pulley then run the wrapper at WOT for a few minutes. If the wrapper is throwing lubricant or drive belt shavings they should be visible on the white paper shield.

Donald La Mar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> However, cannot imagine lubricant or drive belt
> dusk being propelled the length of a rod, so my
> questions are: are the finish flaws confined to
> ares nearest the drive pulley or do they exist for
> the length of the rod, and; anything in your work
> environment that might be spraying anything (HVAC
> vents, spouse dusting furniture, plug in air
> fresheners, etc., etc.)?
>
> Maybe try making a white construction board
> "shield" parallel to the drive pulley then run the
> wrapper at WOT for a few minutes. If the wrapper
> is throwing lubricant or drive belt shavings they
> should be visible on the white paper shield.

Appreciate all the responses; they help confirm several things for me (like the test wrap Tom mentioned).

As for your questions, they also help confirm something I hadn't mentioned before. As you know, the motors to the wrapper are connected to piece of angled steel. When I unboxed the wrapper at Christmas, this piece of steel was not at 90 degrees; rather, it was backward toward the motors themselves (I'd give a degree incline, but I've always been terrible with that).

Again, it didn't look right, but the pulleys turned and the belt turned the chuck, so I figured maybe it came that way. I did at one point put a small block under the wrapper motor to try and level it, but never got close. It's bent "backward" to this day; should it be? (And, I would post a picture, but I don't know how to do so in a post.)

As for where the issues are found, yes; they are on the sections nearest the chuck. That had me confused for a bit, but I only do fly rods and only apply finish to two sections at a time, so while it appeared to happen farther up the rod, it actually didn't, since the ferrule wrap on the third section was only inches away from the motors when finish was applied.

The only things that could be airborne would come from the heat register and also a small, electric space heater. I thought about it as the culprit and still haven't eliminated it, but I don't think it itself is spewing anything, but I'll check more carefully.

As for the "shield," I had also thought of that and will give it a go and see what turns up.

One question that's come up through this discussion is about the wrapper itself...Does it sound like something I should return or call American Tackle about (I don't know where it was purchased, as it was a gift.

Thanks very much...

If the drying and wrapping motor pulleys are not on the same plane as the large pulley attached to the head you have a problem.

OK...I've got a problem.

They are off significantly.

Thanks...I'll contact American Tackle, although the last time I did on a warranty question, they never got back to me.

Steve

well if that is the case I would order a 2 0unce kit of finish the same make and try a fresh batch it could be a problem with the finish you have could have been contaminated in packaging if that is the case I would send it back to the MFG. and see what they have to say or what their testing of that batch tells them
or it got cooked to much
I have learned over the years to buy smaller amounts of finish at a time as I am not a fan of heating it to redissolve the crystals that come with age or extremes in temp. a 4 ounce kit is a lot of finish think about it that makes 8 ounces of finish a lot of rods can be coated with that amount of finish I recommend the hobby builder buys a 2 ounce kit that is enough to do a couple rods with large decorative wraps
It does seem like it is a batch issue and not anything your doing.
as for your wrapper I would again contact the MFG. Not the seller about the issue you have with it .
These are just my 2 cents not saying right or wrong

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

The out of alignment plate to which the motors are mounted and the motors are easily removed. Maybe you get lucky and American sends or sells you a new plate.

Still doubt you've found the source of the finish problem. What have you been using for a pull through to finish a wrap?

Haven't considered to pull through… I've been using Flytying wire. And, I've only recently started using it. I don't know what contamination could be on the wire (and, I've used different colors of wire on different Rods), but it's as likely a candidate as anything.

I'll see about removing the plate and try straightening it in a vise.

Before that, tonight I'll give the paper shield a try. It's probably been caused by the out of plane pulley but there really is a significant amount of lubricant around the base of the motors and pulleys. I'll test it all and let you know how it goes.

Again, thanks to everyone for the time taken to respond… Really appreciate it…

Thanks much… I've changed finish batches twice since throwing out the old flex coat. I'd be very surprised if that was the issue at this point.

Find smaller amounts seems like a good idea.

Thanks...

You don't use heat on the epoxy do you? Or, especially, haven't started using heat recently?

You still getting the cloudy spots?

OK Steve, Just trying to help here, I went threw something similar when I first started, And these fellows years back helped me thru it just by reading and asking questions. So I,m going out on a limb here. Let just say you may in fact be seeing some type of fish eye problem, Not a bad one, but a Nagy one that pops up occasionally, from rod to rod? I have had that, Do you live in a single floor home? Such as a Ranch, Or maybe a better term would be, Are you wrapping and finishing on the same floor your also living on? Or are you working in a dedicated room in the house with a door that can be closed at all times? I had problems working in what I Thought was a great wrapping area, An {unused clean} fairly large off to side type Dinning room. In my old home, I would have a one rod come out Great Perfect! While the next would have some small and not many sometimes 3-6 what appeared to me as fish-eyes?? Whats was causing it, I was doing everything in the book right and them some, And I regularly used alcohol whips on my hands and everything. What I did not think about however was the Kitchen that was completely in another room. And That their was the culprit as I discovered! We didn't do a lot of cooking at all, But the little we did, affected my finish like your describing, One or two rods would be fine the next would have the spots that was when the it finally tied it together, As my son made popcorn in the microwave earlier in the evening. latter that night I applied my finish after everyone was in bed and no dust would be kicked up from the wife or son walking around, And I had a few dimples or fish eyes, That made me Think and Make Changes, I was able to still work there but I had to be Vigilant to cover any of my wraps in between working on them, With Saran wrap, And I would make sure no cooking was done that day at all when I applied Finnish, And It Worked! I didn't have a problem after that. So watch out for cooking It can bite you. Now if your Wrapping and finishing in a dedicated room with the door keep closed just you your heater and a radio > Just forget what I just said. LOL The house I'm in now my lathes and wood working equipment are in a heated garage were I do all my grip work, I then move to a Rod Room I finished off in the basement for all my wrapping and Finnish work I heat it with a small vented natural gas heater with NO blower even thou I have forced air heat I keep the vents blocked off as I don't want any dust moving around, I like to be able to adjust my heat to my liking 72 when I apply, and Then kick it up for drying. When I'm not using color preserver, I'm a two coat guy. First light coat gets brushed in well, To soak in and remove air that's in the threads, I then finish with the final top coat, It just works for {me} Maybe something here will stand out for you? Maybe not. But I'm Thinking of Ya as I have been their. Jaa

Steve,
Could you take a close up of your wrapper chuck and the area where you think you may be getting the problems from?

I agree, that what ever you use to wrap rods should be free of any wobble, binding or other issues. The bearings should be like velvet, the head stock should spin freely, and if a straight length of tubing is put in the chuck the end of the tubing should spin perfectly with no wobble.

Some of the chucks and head stocks on commercial wrappers are less than perfect. But, in the interest of market pricing, this is the quality that is placed on the wrapper to meet market conditions.

The headstocks from a machine shop lathe or equivalent is really nice to have on the head end of a power wrapper, but it can price the wrapper out of reach for some folks.

The comments about cooking oil getting on a rod is right on. Possible contamination. Also, the idea of putting a cover of some sort over the rod when not working on the rod is a good one. Also, the idea of having a shield

Many folks use a drying cabinet or equivalent while drying to prevent air borne contamination on a drying job.

Good luck

Jay Dubay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK Steve, Just trying to help here, I went threw
> something similar when I first started, And these
> fellows years back helped me thru it just by
> reading and asking questions. So I,m going out on
> a limb here. Let just say you may in fact be
> seeing some type of fish eye problem, Not a bad
> one, but a Nagy one that pops up occasionally,
> from rod to rod?

Exactly. What's so frustrating about it is that I've been building rods since 1987 and this has never happened and it doesn't happen consistently enough to be able to identify the problem with accuracy.


I have had that, Do you live in a
> single floor home? Such as a Ranch, Or maybe a
> better term would be, Are you wrapping and
> finishing on the same floor your also living on?
> Or are you working in a dedicated room in the
> house with a door that can be closed at all times?

Yes. Same room, upstairs. But, again, I've wrapped and finished in this room for a couple years and have not had this problem.

> I had problems working in what I Thought was a
> great wrapping area, An {unused clean} fairly
> large off to side type Dinning room. In my old
> home, I would have a one rod come out Great
> Perfect! While the next would have some small and
> not many sometimes 3-6 what appeared to me as
> fish-eyes?? Whats was causing it, I was doing
> everything in the book right and them some, And I
> regularly used alcohol whips on my hands and
> everything. What I did not think about however was
> the Kitchen that was completely in another room.
> And That their was the culprit as I discovered!
> We didn't do a lot of cooking at all, But the
> little we did, affected my finish like your
> describing, One or two rods would be fine the next
> would have the spots that was when the it finally
> tied it together, As my son made popcorn in the
> microwave earlier in the evening. latter that
> night I applied my finish after everyone was in
> bed and no dust would be kicked up from the wife
> or son walking around, And I had a few dimples or
> fish eyes, That made me Think and Make Changes, I
> was able to still work there but I had to be
> Vigilant to cover any of my wraps in between
> working on them, With Saran wrap, And I would make
> sure no cooking was done that day at all when I
> applied Finnish, And It Worked! I didn't have a
> problem after that. So watch out for cooking It
> can bite you.

This almost perfectly describes what I'm experiencing, except I'm on the upper floor away from the kitchen. I've checked and rechecked and the only source of oil I have in here is the lubricant on the ring of the bearing in the rod chuck. I can wipe my finger on the rim of it and have oil on my finger tip. Because it is out-of-alignment, it often wobbles in the hole or even wobbles itself out about 1/32-1/16 (when I pop it back in, this is about how far it "pops").

My shield test had nothing on it but if microwave popcorn in another room can affect your finish, I imagine this can affect mine.

Appreciate the commiseration...As I said, having done this and dozens of rods for years, having this happen all of a sudden is bad enough but not to know why is worse.

I may try and post a pic of the finish issue in the gallery, I guess.

Again, thanks.

I'll try and post a picture to the gallery; I'm pretty sure I received a defective wrapper in that the angled support was bent from the moment I unboxed it.

The wobble can be significant, depending on my alignment of the supports and how close to level I can some- This is difficult at times with smaller fly rods since they either have to rest on the bottom two wheels because the top one doesn't adjust downward far enough or I have to push upward on the blank with the lower two wheels for the blank to make contact with upper one so the wobble settles down on that section of rod while I work on it.

I definitely have wobble...And I assume the bearing shouldn't just pop out of the housing all by itself.

I'll see about that picture.

Thanks...

I can't figure out to post a picture in the gallery. If anyone can point the way, I'd be most grateful.

Thanks.

Click on Photos above.

A new window or page will display and contain a login button. As you have not posted a photo before you will need to login to Photos using your Forum name and password.

Then all you need do is click on the upload function and follow the prompts.

When I do that on the Photos page, it comes back as Invalid.

Wow, my problems never cease :)

I'll keep trying.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Steve

If you can see the photos in the links above, note that all the pulleys are in the same plane.