I know it isn't the correct way but does anyone shim the foot on a spinning reel to point to the 1st guide? I have a rod I'm putting lighter guides on and didn't order a raised 1st guide and wondered if I was the only one that thought about it. Thanks

Lots have tried it, but there really isn't much reason to do it - the reel isn't a rifle and does not "shoot" line. The line is pulled off the spool so the angle of the spool is not a great concern. Plus, it is possible to shim the reel to the point that the bail wire will smack your finger upon retrieval.

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I flunked geometry, but if the direction of the axis of the reel spool is not important then the direction of the axis of the stripping guide is not important either?

A reel is not a rifle. It does not shoot line. Line is simply pulled from it. Line has to pass through the guides, it does not pass through the spool. It leaves it.

Let's say you turned the reel around backwards. Now the spool is facing the butt of the rod. When you attempt to cast it, do you believe the spool will shoot line towards the butt of the rod? Obviously, that won't happen. You'll have a sudden stop as the line attempts to go in the direction in which it's being pulled, which is towards the butt guide.

This was one of the things that Doug Hannon and I used to talk about. He would comment about how many fishermen thought that the reel "shot" line from the spool and thus the angle of the spool was so very important. In reality, as long as the spool is facing the tip of the rod and not pointed up or down at some extreme angle that would actually catch the outgoing line, you can angle the reel up or down by quite a bit and it will have zero effect on casting distance.

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Alex,
You would be well served to order a new butt guide so that the line can come straight off the reel and flow through the butt guide. I like to have the line flow around the entire diameter of the butt guide when retrieving line under light pressure.

If the butt guide is either too small or two short, you will find that the line simply rubs against the butt guide in one spot - rather than all around the entire guide. I have found that for long days of casting on the water, that using a butt guide of the right size and height, cuts down on line friction, casting effort and increases the overall pleasure in using the rod and reel.

Take care

The line will follow the path of least resistance, which is probably a straight line from the axis of the reel spool to the center of the stripping guide, and the farther the line is forced to deviate from a straight path the more friction it will encounter. I believe this is the central assumption in the design of the ideal guide train.

The straight line is (hopefully) from the reel to the butt guide, but the base axis of the reel spool is not necessarily quite along that same, straight line. The instant the line is pulled from the spool, gravity begins pulling it downward, being overcome somewhat by the inertia of the line as it is pulled along. Ideally, the line will only hit the butt guide at one spot, which is going to be the bottom of the ring. If the line is contacting the ring around its entire inside diameter, the ring is doing very little to control the line and the resistance of the line through the air as it continues to revolve in large coils is greater than the friction between the line and a single spot on the butt guide ring.

Obviously, the more ideal everything is the better things will be, but at some point, minor adjustments fail to make any more practical difference. But don't take anyone's word for it. Set up your rod as best you can and then shim the reel seat to vary the reel by a few degrees upward. I'll let you decide if it makes any difference or not.

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Actually, the line does not leave the reel from it's axis, it leaves from somewhere outside the axis from the outside of the spool.

That's why I said the "base" of the axis which is behind the spool face by some distance.

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The reason a revolving spool reel can cast farther than a spinning reel can only be attributed to the friction between the line and the lip of the spinning reel spool plus the friction between the line and the choker guide on a spinning rod. After the loops generated by the spinning reel spool straighten out there can't be much difference between the friction in the guide train of a conventional rod and the friction in the guide train of a spinning rod. The distance handicap inherent in a spinning rod occurs in that short space between the reel spool and the choker guide.

It's mostly in the distance between the spool and butt guide, with a minimum of final control needed from there to the butt guide. You're correct in that once the line straightens out there isn't much difference between the two. This is why the NGC and now the "rapid choke" systems have merit in many cases.

If the spool is properly filled, the initial cast doesn't pit the line against the lip of the reel spool - the line billows out away from the spool lip and doesn't touch it.

Casting reels don't necessarily cast further than spinning reels, of course, and particularly when dealing with lighter lure weights. Casting reels have their own "friction" issues but this is within the reel rather than the line and has improved dramatically over the past decade or so.

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You guys amaze me with your knowledge of the theory about how things work. I followed the recipe Norman gave me on guides for a previous rod I built and it catches fish almost every day. They were the smallest lightest guides, Minima, with the lightest blank, Rainforrest Immortal walleye 6' cut to 5 1/2'. The rod weighs less than 3 oz and the reel is 6 so I, as an old man, can fish comfortably all day.

I only meant to say that all distance casting records have been set using casting, not spinning reels, and this is probably attributable to a difference in friction between the reel spool and the tip-top. If the line billows away from the lip of a spinning reel spool there is no friction here, so the friction which causes spinning rods to be less efficient than casting rods must occur when the loops of line pass through the first guide. Pointing the axis of a spinning reel spool directly at the center of the first guide and tilting the first guide ring so it is parallel to the spool face would probably improve the performance of a spinning reel even more than reducing the weight of the guide train by a few grains.

That is certainly correct, although most distance casting competitions utilize heavier casting weights than those that popularized spinning equipment over the years.

You can angle the reel and guide a few degrees as you mention and test for yourself. I never like to advocate for doing less than the optimum but in reality you aren't likely to find much difference between that something that is just close. However, don't take my word for it. Try it for yourself.

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Alex,

It would be difficult to optimize the reel seat for the reel without knowing the size and manufacturer's model that will always be used. The reason I mention this is because many spinning reels have the spool made so that it has an upward angle. Perhaps you could use some electrical tape either under the front or back of the reel's foot to tweak in the angle. If you use the Angler's Resource GPS system, you will be given the proper guide positions calculated by the reel's spool angle to the rod.

Tom,

Gravity is highly over rated (especially when I get on the bathroom scale).
[www.youtube.com]

With this in mind, a forward leaning reduction train, such as the KW series, may be the optimum option.

The last I heard, the US record for a spinning rod was 757 feet, while the US record for a conventional reel is over 860 feet. Many advances have been made to conventional reels. However, problems with monofilament persist.

Don Becker

Don,

Yes, we ran those photos and an article in an issue of RodMaker several years ago.

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I'm not interested in the last few feet of casting distance just want a decent more sensitive rod for inshore fishing. I finished the rod and it feels much better with the lighter guides. I even caught a bass today with a twitch bait. It cast just fine. I left the reel unshimmed.