And a glorious, good day to all.
While gathering the needed supplies, information and courage to attempt building my first spiral wrap rod for live bait fishing off the SoCal coast, I was reading Lynn Behlar’s post “ Low frame double foot guides” from about a week ago and the replies within. It was obvious to many he was looking for an appropriate, if not the ultimate, bumper guide for a spiral wrap. I was also interested for obvious reasons. And then I (Oh, NO!) started thinking…..
A few months ago, seeking build information on spiral wraps, I started a post on this site and received a wealth of information and suggestions from many of you qualified, veteran builders, and Thanks again. I must have misread or misinterpreted one of the replies from a predominate source who stated no bumper is required and that the line will transition from the 0* axis stripper to the next guide on the 180* avis without touching the blank. Not understanding how that could be possible, I performed static tests and could not duplicate what that reply was referring to. I put the project on hold until now.
I understand the obvious benefits of deflecting the line as little as possible in any application, spiral wrap rods included, as does Lynn and the rest of us. Looking at the “Spaced Spiral“ thread wraps on a vintage rod sparked an idea. Could a 1 to 2in long “Spaced spiral” of appropriate WIRE (0.060in?) be wrapped around the blank in lieu of a 90* bumper guide? I would think the wire would perform best if spiraled in the opposite direction of the line at that point even though it might possible not shed water (friction) off the line as well as if spiraled the other direction. If the wire spiral was spaced properly, it might only touch one loop at a time. 316 SS possesses very good corrosion resistance but might be too soft, and I am uncertain of the bendability of the two common grades of titanium.
If feasible, the line could transition from the top to the bottom quicker than a 0-60-120-180* transition train which, I assume, is employed to keep the line close to the blank.
While certainly not the lowest guide ring, the bottom of a KW-8 ring is approximately 0.215in. 0.060 to 0.093in would be a vast improvement. While this may have been attempted before, my research has revealed nothing. Maybe it is not common-place on spiral rods because it’s a stupid idea. In any case, I would be very interested in feedback from veteran builders as you whose opinions I value and respect.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,
A system that works very well is to angle the stripper guide about 5 degrees in the direction of the spiral which works well with many rods anyway.

Then, take your guide #2 and put it a 150 degrees than 180 degrees and then put guide #3 at 180 degrees.

You may get a touch of line rub with this setup but it will be less than if the stripper guide is a 0 and the #2 guide is at 180 degrees.

There is nothing in stone that requires a particular degree of rotation of any of the guides on a spiral wrapped rod.

Good luck

No, the line will touch the blank - you may want to go read it again. It only said that the line will go from the 0 to 180 guide automatically if you'll just let it - you don't have to take it around to that point. But it did not say the line would not touch the blank. You are correct - that's impossible.

The first ones I did did not have a Bumper guide. I simply let the line rub the blank on the side. Nothing ever happened other than the contact point getting a little dull from that light contact. So the Bumper is not absolutely necessary, but nonetheless some prefer it.

Others have tried various implements other than a guide for the line to rub against. Thread wraps coating in Permagloss, ceramic rings slid over the blank to that point, etc., etc. All work to some extent if the goal is simply to give the line a hard surface to contact other than the rod blank itself.

............

This is how I do it and it can be applied to conventional wrapped rods also. It helps resolve the question of guide spacing.

Bend the blank to 90° and mark the top of the arc. Mark about 3 inches behind the "arc" mark toward the reel seat. This is where you want your line to be under the rod at 180° by. Mount the reel you are going to use and tape the line about 1" before the "arc" mark to the bottom 180° of the blank. This will be your choke point. Mount the first stripper guide that is closest to the reel in a position/distance where the line will pass through the middle of the ring at 0°. I like 0° because it looks right to me but it probably doesn’t make a difference. Put the next guide at around 45° where the line passes again through the center of the ring on the guide. Guide 3 (3rd from reel) mount around 135° with the line in the middle of the guide ring. Guide 4, same thing except this one will be mounted at 180°. The running guide train should be spaced to accommodate this spacing so that it looks right. This will keep the line off the blank and your line will be on bottom by the 4th guide and behind the main arc of the blank. Keep the line from the reel as straight as possible through the transition with your guide alignment. You may want to turn the feet of the guides at angle in alignment with the flow of the line on the transition guides. Static test with the guides on to insure the line is not touching the blank, adjust as necessary.

I wish this sight would allow pictures to be posted with these comments and I could show you. Maybe you should upgrade this site to accommodate this administrator.

Are you willing to fund the upgrade?

.............

I wish I could. LOL

Before I attempt to answer your question, I'd like to know what fish you are targeting and what pound test you will fish. Also if you will be fishing a private boat or a party boat.

I'd build something very different for albacore than I would for yellowtail. All comes down to if casting the live bait is part of the picture.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

My last spiral wrap goes from top to bottom thru a wide foot # 4 Pac Bay mini guide wrapped with locking and blocking wraps. You'd have a hard time tearing it off and it casts a 12ft. flouro leader tied to 50 lb. power pro as smoothly as I could wish. Could not live with it touching the blank.

Thank you Roger, Tom, Lance and Russell for taking the time to, yet again, offer assistance regarding spiral wraps. I know the subject has been beat to death and I was almost afraid to ask,,, again. The information gained is invaluable! Tom has eased my pea-brain concerning the line touching the blank as it transitions from top to bottom. Whew! That one issue caused me to put my attempt to spiral wrap a rod on hold because I apparently did not understand the concept enough to do it properly.
While I have read of offsetting the 0* and 180* guides, Roger is the first (that I have heard anyway) to suggest the possibly of slightly angling transition guides, and Lance seconded the idea. I will certainly remember the idea when static and cast testing. Admittedly, I would prefer to keep everything square from an aesthetic perspective, but I habitually employ “Form Follows Function” with my over-thinking.
Lance is the first (again, that I have heard anyway) to offer a very good guide placement starting point, particularly for the 180* choke guide. Before thinking of my “stupid spiral” idea, I had thought 0*, 60*, 120*, 180* would be the way to go because of the larger than normal diameter of the blank (0.77in) and the rather small guides attempting to be used. But the other issue I have with this vintage FG Conolon is that it is inherently more “Full-flexing”, OK Slow, than what most sane people would use for this application. Due to the full-flexing and Lance’s point (well understood and agreed with, by the way) of the choke guide needing to be placed behind the beginning of the blank’s flex point, I really need the shortest transition train possible. So,,,,,
Another idea stemming from the space-spiraled wire in lieu of a bumper guide(s) concept; Use a 1 to 3in straight length of 0.125in diameter titanium, polished, flattened on one side to 0.093in, ends ground as with a typical guide foot, axially bonded (not that it would probably need to be) to the blank and the ends wrapped as with the (other) guides. Two might be required but hopefully not from a friction standpoint. Much simpler to produce, install, REPLACE if ever needed, and more effective than the stupid spiral, but possibly the best advantage is the abbreviated length of the transition train. You thought my Habitual- Over-Thinking was bad, but it only (positively or negatively depending on your perspective) perpetuates from there!
As per Russell’s request, this vintage FG rod is 9ft 10in, medium action at best, estimated 20, maybe 25lb line rating. By the way, it is (unfortunately) a two-piece rod, which will benefit immensely from being spiraled wrapped to avoid the tip section twisting on the butt. I plan on using it primarily for Yellowtail and white sea bass, but am certain calico will end up putting a (small) bend in it and hopefully give a blue or yellow fin tuna an opportunity to break it if they happen-by.
Without any direct feedback on the spaced-spiral-wire idea, I take that as your very polite way of saying it was stupid as I suggested it might be. But with the straight length(s), which I think is a definite improvement, please give me some feedback. You cannot offend me (at least not on this issue) because I truly appreciate, value and respect all of your opinions and suggestions and confidently employ them as well! I am certainly not the smartest man in the world but like to associate myself with those who might be.
Prior feedback appreciation.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Lynn,
Although lacking the experience as well as being a rookie, I would have to agree and would prefer to avoid the line rubbing the blank.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Lynn,
By the way, what is the distance between the rod and the bottom surface of your guide ring?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,
Of course it is very simple to put your line rub issues to rest by installing a bumper guide that has the ring essentially resting on the blank. If necessary, you can rebend the feet of the guide to create such a guide. If you do this, you will get no line rubs and the line will follow its natural course on the way to the 180 degree guide.

Good luck

Russell,
Sorry, but I forgot to include all your requested info. I (we) typically bait fish but will toss jigs when feeling adventurous and my fossilized arm is up to it. I use 50# PowerPro, FG knot tied to 20-25# fluoro, typically with a sardine, small mackerel or hopefully squid unless only anchovies are available, or 1-3oz jigs. I fish mostly from a couple friend’s boats but will utilize a party boat when my buddies don’t take me enough. While one of Michael Harmon’s “surfbottomfly” rods might be best, I am looking forward to allowing this old FG rod an opportunity to perform it’s originally desire.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Roger,
As usual, you are correct, I certainly agree with you, and may do just that. I am exploring other/all options before proceeding. You must know me by now. When getting started with rod building, I wasn’t satisfied with the power wrappers commercially available, so I built my own. I can only hope this “bumper guide rail” performs as well. I’m certain you can relate to that side of me. To me, there is less thrill or excitement doing things the way everyone does. With the vast knowledge and experience of you seasoned rod building veterans gained through your triumphs and failures alike available on this site, I would very much like to receive feedback on my brainstorm or brainfart, especially negative views which might provide insight I overlooked, as in “Can’t see the forest through the trees”. Expressed differently than a few posts ago, I may not be the smartest man in the world, but I like to LEARN FROM from those who might be.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

In my haste to make a point with the guide placement I made a mistake regarding the placement of the first guide that sits at 180°. I meant to say that it should be placed about 1" (toward the reel) from the mark that is 3" from the arc. To me the most important factor is to keep the line as straight as possible through the transition. A shorter rod will require the first stripper guide that is closest to the reel to be less distance to the reel.

I have not made any offshore rods but I have fished them many times. I have made medium light to medium heavy rods to catch fish in the 50-100 lbs range near shore or inland. I am wondering how small can the guides be for an offshore jigging rod? Is there an advantage? Maybe I should start another thread, I do not want to hijack this one as I have seen expressed before.

Hijack has begun. Lance, which guides do you want to know the size of? If you are talking the entire train that can be tricky. The stripper guide needs to big enough that when you are fighting a large fish the line isn't cutting into your hand when holding the foregrip (#16-#20). I usually use 2-3 transition guides then the guides placed at 180 are large enough to pass line to leader knots(#10). I use this method on rods used for jigging large fish with rigs or heavy jigs. An example guide train 20-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-tip. For smaller species I might use only one transition guide and #16 stripper with #8 runners and one transition guide. If you do a search you see many opinions and methods. This is my $0.02. Hope it helps.

Well Mark, at the risk of offending some I'll make two points.

1) I hate to see someone make a conclusion about something based off using parts that don't fit the recipe. IMHO save your old rod for tossing plugs where the slower action will help. Get a grafighter 800L/rclb80L and pair it with Daiwa slosh/avet sx/penn 525. If newish to casting conventionals I'd go with the slosh as the 525 is wickedly fast (IMHO).

2) Be careful appyling what works for freshwater builds to tackle for tough salty fish like a yellowtail.

I find it hard to get a handle on your experience level and your goals. Perhaps you are a very experienced fisherman with an adequate amount of purpose built rods. Maybe you are just looking to "play around" with an old rod blank. If so, disregard my posts. On the other hand, maybe you are somewhat new to offshore fishing and looking to aquire tackle suitable for your fish and waters?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Lance and Michael,
Hijacking is allowed and certainly no offense taken. Actually, guide size was another issue with which I needed suggestions. My initial thoughts parallel Michael’s. Since I will be targeting fish less than 60#, I initially figured KWs 16, 12, and the remainder 8 as with the 30# 9ft Black Diamond Hybrid I built 5 months ago, but with guides on top. With this rod being spiral wrapped, I would omit the size 12. Sound good? Guide #2 would be 45*-60* and guide #3 mirrored at 120*-135*, positioned to keep the line 0.90-0.125 off the blank. While you (and probably everyone else) is afraid to ask, conventional bumper guides may be better suited here as my wire idea may have actually been a brainfart rather than a brainstorm. The diameter of one wire at 90* would have to over 0.125 to keep the line off the rod resulting in too much surface contact = friction and two smaller diameter spaced wires touches the line in two places = friction. I think the line may prefer Alconite VS titanium. I haven’t given up and shelved the concept, but for my first spiral wrap, employing a conventional method may be better suited while gaining basic experience. After that, LOOK OUT!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, I have tried to do what you proposed. I attempted to wrap a length of titanium alloy leader material, to make a "bumper" guide. The stuff retains its shape entirely too well to do this. I did a little research and discovered that what is required to make this material form to a different shape, a spiral in this case, is extreme heat. I have no way to achieve the required temperature.

Gary,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is comforting to know I’m not alone in the boat. One never knows when it may need to be bailed! LOL

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.