Hi guys,

Ive been building for several years now and recently had a Phenix jigging rod returned for reel seat failure. This is a first for me and it was to say the least a bit embarrassing as this was a rather expensive rod. I used a Flex Coat foam arbor to mount the reel seat, which I have used for many years on my lighter tackle inshore and bass stuff with no problems, and will continue to use for those types of applications. These Phenix jigging blanks however, have a parabolic tip to butt action and it undoubtedly caused the foam arbor to fail. The epoxy on the blank is intact as well as the epoxy bond with the arbor and seat, the foam just broke down internally and failed from the flex through the seat I am guessing.

Having said all that, these blanks are relatively small diameters and the reel seat is a 20. Considering the action of these blanks, and the flex properties they hold, what method would you more seasoned and experienced builders use for this type mount. Thinking about the old tried and true tape bushing method, or possibly the mesh tape. This is a rather large build up though and whatever I choose, I would rather it not fail again. I have read through some of the older posts and have lurked here in the shadows for a long while. Thanks for your willingness to share your tips and tricks of the trade with all of us.

It was the foam arbor that failed - not the seat, correct? Never had foam fail, but maybe that is just good luck.

I've used graphite arbors but swore off because of the mess made when reaming to size. Cannot imagine graphite failing due to compression, but to be safe and add a bit of give I'll vote for the dry wall mesh over masking tape.

Yes, It was definitely the foam. There's still a good epoxy bond on the rod, along with a bit of the foam, and also the bond inside the seat is still secure. Never had this happen before! I had the opportunity to fish with this same rod about 3 months back on some big amberjack and was amazed at how i could feel the blank flexing all along its length. The rod is also spiral/acid wrapped, which is an absolute dream set-up for this type of technique. The rod is about 2 years old now, and will be a free repair for this customer. He is a local Doc and doesnt care at all to part with $$ for his customs! Thanks for the reply!

I have had a failure when I reamed the arbor too much for a bigger blank and there wasn't much arbor left. Usually with more of the arbor intact it is stronger. When you take it apart you will know for sure what happened but my guess would be that the arbor broke free from the inside of the reel seat not the arbor from the blank. I usually sandpaper the inside of the reel seat to scuff it up good and coat the reel seat and arbor with rod bond covering it entirely. But again you wont know until you take it apart. If the issue is that it is spinning then when you cut it off you would be able to see if its spinning with the arbors attached or just spinning on the arbors but the arbors are still seated to the blank. That is the only way to be able to tell for sure. Sorry as I had that happen and it stinks.

DG

OOPS posting as you posted...lol

Jeff,
One thing that you could do would be to use pieces of graphite blanks as an arbor. Use an old broken blank and cut a piece that will be a nice slip fit on the blank inside the reel seat. If more is needed, then put another larger piece of broken blank over the first piece of blank.

Remove the finish from the blank pieces so that you have a good base for the epoxy. Hence, you will have solid graphite from the blank to the reel seat with no likely spot for failure.

Good luck

Outstanding idea Roger! I would love to try this technique, but I am trying to avoid stripping the entire rod and am hoping to do this repair from the butt of the rod and the nice taper slip fit wouldn't be possible from this direction. This is a great idea though for future builds of this nature and I will definitely keep it in mind.

On another note, I was just looking at a post you put up with your wrapping/drying motor set up. Again, great ideas! Im not very electronically savvy, but I would love to have a plan for that set up! Thanks for the reply!

I have been worried about this since I had first started using them. I used to make surfboards and the core of the board was made with a polyurethane foam (closed cell) that was shaped then glassed using 4 or 6 oz fiberglass cloth and polyester resin. When a surfboard gets a ding or damage to the fiberglass coating it allows water to get in and over time the foam begins to break down or rot. The bond between the fiberglass and foam breaks down and delaminates. I am wondering if water got into the grip, maybe it wasn't sealed enough to prevent water from getting in. I think in the application of something like an offshore rod where the shorter rod is likely to flex through the handle and the size of the arbor used is so large because of the size of the reel seat it will be more prone to structural or mechanical failure due to compression. The polyurethane foam is just not that strong. I believe the ultimate solution is to not use large polyurethane arbors at full length. Cut them in smaller sections so they can flex without as much compression allowing the adhesive to build up between the pieces, cut grooves on the OD and ID of the arbors to allow for more surface area for the epoxy, leave a gap at the ends of the ID of the reel seat and the arbor that can be filled with epoxy to create a better seal and use a gel type flexible epoxy. I use Roddancer Ultimate Epoxy 15 although there are many others but I have local access to this one and understand its properties like the elasticity. Of course there are also other alternatives that will not use polyurethane foam; Graphite (small sections) and drywall tape for instance. I just don't use tape for arbors so I will not recommend it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2017 04:16PM by Lance Schreckenbach.

My guess would be that the arbor itself was crushed by the small diameter blank flexing into that forward portion. Given that most small diameter blanks are not used in such applications (this type blank/technique remains fairly new) and that larger blanks automatically spread the load over a larger area, this sort of problem has not been an issue in the past.

You could always make your own foam arbors from a higher density foam. Granted, there would be a good deal of additional labor here. Otherwise, the drywall mesh might be your best bet.

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Jeff,
You are fortunate to have so many veterans willing to share their thoughts and suggestions. Taking Roger’s great suggestion and applying it to your “reverse” build could be accomplished by axially slitting the sacrificial rod arbors to enable them to expand over the butt of the rod. With ample epoxy between all surfaces, very solid arbors should be accomplished. I would still use multiple arbors less than .75 long. Do you agree, Roger?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Tom, your assessment is probably exactly what's going on here as the blank does indeed "want" to flex through the seat and the softer foam couldn't bear the strain. Mark, you sir are also correct as far as splitting these smaller arbor sections and assembling them. I definitely want this repair to hold and Anyone out there using this type blank can also draw experience from this thread. You gentlemen have really helped me out here and I will be lurking in the shadows and maybe even share a tip or trick myself from time to time. Thanks to all and feel free to continue to chime in on this. This type of jigging blank is becoming more popular and you saltwater guys will probably have a request for one soon! Thanks again!!

The dry wall tape may be a good option. This tape is a fiberglass mesh and this allows the epoxy to flow between the mesh layers giving a good epoxy bond from the blank to reel seat. However, if you use it there are some issues to think about. The dry wall tape has some adhesive so it will stick to the blank and itself when dry, but when it comes in contact with epoxy it will slip on the blank and itself. This makes it harder to wrap on the blank and to position the reel seat evenly over the tape sections. What I do is dry wrap the tape mesh on the the blank till the reel seat fit nicely. I then I unwrap the strips and tack down the leading edge of the tape to the blank with superglue. I tack down each strip at the same time. When dry I add paste epoxy with a spatula as I wind the tape tightly onto the blank, this forces the epoxy into the mesh to the blank surface. I do this one at a time for each strip of dry wall tape needed to fill the length of the reel seat leaving a small space between strips. Rough up the inside of the reel seat and slide it onto the tape arbor. If the arbor is to large just unwind a little and cut the tape with a razor or utility knife. The paste epoxy is very flexible and strong, so it will work very well for what you want. Hope this helps.
Norm

I have seen some old rods with wood arbors .This might work

I would remove the rear grip.
Then, I would pick up a piece of blank that would slip over the butt of the rod - assuming that it was small enough to fit inside the reel seat.
Then, where needed, just use a masking tape arbor on the blank to fill any gap. Use rows of masking tape with a 1/16th inch space between the rows of tape. Then, when gluing up, fill the 1/16th inch gap with glue and you will have a well sealed solid rod reel setup.

Or, select a blank piece of the correct size and taper for a nice fit over the original rod blank in the area of the reel seat. Then, use a band saw to slice the blank piece in half. Then, just use 5 minute epoxy to epoxy the blank arbor to the blank, using a couple of wraps at each end of the blank pieces to hold it all together while the glue is drying. Then, just glue the reel seat to the blank piece and follow up with a new rear grip - slipped on from the butt of the rod. Again, if necessary for the rear grip to have a snug fit, just use one or more masking tape arbors to fill the gaps when installing the rear grip from the butt of the rod.

Be safe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2017 07:21PM by roger wilson.

Another attribute to splitting Roger’s arbors is their ability to fit a wider range of blank diameters. Really good idea, Roger! I would not have expected any less from you.
Lance is from another field of composite construction than I am but also understands the properties of urethane foam, Tom as well. I think the main issue here is to use any arbor, be they foam, mesh or tape, only to locate the seat on the blank rather than supporting it the entire length. The difficulty is applying the epoxy to produce a void-free bushing between the blank and seat. Even with rotating the seat while sliding it over the epoxy coated blank and arbors, epoxy is pulled away from the starting point, creating voids. With small gaps between the blank and seat, I use my finger in a rotating motion to continually force the epoxy into the gap as the seat is slid on. On larger gaps, I will put a ¼in band of epoxy inside the first arbor and lay two, 1-2in lengths of small diameter surgical tubing along either side of the blank. The remaining epoxy is put in a syringe and shot through the tubing as the seat is slid on, keeping a small bead of epoxy ahead of the seat. Mesh will not work for this application. As Lance mentioned, an epoxy bushing should be used for, at least, the outside ½ in of the seat. It really isn’t as involved as it may seem, actually makes less of a mess, and produces a virtually void-free bushing. I will even add micro spheres to the epoxy if weight is a concern, but only on lighter duty and/or stout-butt rods as the micro spheres can weaken the strength of the epoxy to some extent and might possibly act as grit if a lot of flexing exists.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

You will be rebuilding from the butt end (I assume). This makes the drywall mesh tape or masking tape arbors the easiest route.

I reckon if I was looking the ultimate (mess also) I'd use the drywall tape with a liquid epoxy like West between layers of tape and then use a gel type epoxy to adhere it all to the reel seat. I'd leave some gaps where it was all gel epoxy between seat and blank. I'd also heed what Lance said about making sure ends of the seat are well sealed.

Nice report and will give us all something to ponder if we build on such blanks.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Roger has some great ideas. I'm thinking in the future cut the foam Arbor into pieces and attach to blank leaving spaces between the pieces. It will look like a tape arbor. That will allow the reel seat to flex a bit and the spaces will allow the arbor to flex with blank.

I have been cutting my Flexcoat 4" arbors into 4 equal pieces with 1/8" spaces between since I have been building. The principal of integral calculus makes it easier to reproduce the blank's taper in 4 short pieces instead of one long one.
But the idea to seal front and back with epoxy is a great one. I build mostly fly rods - so flex really not an issue. But I do build the occasional conventional rod for my son. Will seal in future.
Speaking of epoxy. I used to use West System 4:1. Now I use their CFlex. Much more viscous and when cured it is much more flexible
Herb

Thanks to each one of you for your input on this topic. Great ideas here and I already feel confident about the repair. I have already ordered the new Fuji PSSLD reel seat, would really be nice if these came with smaller I.D options than 20.These Phenix blanks are amazing in their capabilities as far as power and lifting capacity. Even during the spiral set up it was apparent that this would be a winner, and having the opportunity to actually fish the completed rod was very pleasing. Now...just need to make her stay together!! Tight lines! (and reel seats) ;-)

There is a new product soon to be on the market that will likely revolutionize the entire world of "arbors." It is almost a "one size fits all" and requires no reaming, shaping, or anything other than twist on and go. Not sure if it is ready for shipment and it might not be until the Expo that it is unveiled. It would definitely be as solid as they come and without much weight. I'll leave this alone for now and let the manufacturer chime in if they want to.

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