Hello all. This is my first post here. I am a newbie rod builder, have only wrapped a few guides so far, for practice.

I am about to start a couple of builds, one being a Daiwa Saltiga Ballistic 35-405. I have been researching this for the past 6 months or so, accumulating materials and tools, etc. I want to build this as a spiral wrap. Selecting guides not knowing much about them, is bewildering. I have ordered 2 sets of guides, so far, for this rod that I did not like. On the Super Seeker that I am also building, I am using Virtus guides. I think these guides may work for the Ballistic also, but I would love to hear some experienced opinions. I am wondering whether heavy or light, SS or titanium. The titanium is stupid expensive, but the appeal of a little less weight is strong. If titanium is the choice, I am thinking the heavy guides?

Currently I am wondering about a size 20 stripper, then going to 12s to the top, spiral wrapped.

This rod will be used with conventional reels, both the Daiwa 7HT Mag, and the Penn US113W, depending on circumstance. With the Penn, it will mainly be used slide bait style. The 7HT will mainly be 50 lb braid, the Penn with 60lb mono.


For guide locations, I plan on using the guide location calculator on acidroddotorg as a starting place, mocking up the rod, stressing it, and test casting.


Before I order the 3rd set of incorrect guides, what do you all think? Virtus guides for this rod? Titanium? SS? Heavy? Light?

Cheers!

Titanium as long as you can drop the change. Perhaps since you are just starting out you may want to save some cash on this one till you get some experience wrapping. Along with the weight savings you will also get guides that will hold up to the salt water for years to come. Spiral is the only way to go and guide size choices you have are a good choice.

10 runners are common for salt rods Depends on your knots that you have to pass

Bill - willierods.com

If I go with the titanium Virtus, then heavy? or the light ones?

Will a setup of 20 stripper, to 12 on out, theoretically cut any distance from the potential of the rod? I pendulum cast mostly.

I have never cast a spiral wrap, yet.

"With the Penn, it will mainly be used slide bait style." "the Penn with 60lb mono."

Perhaps you could explain a little about slide bait style. The difference between a Daiwa 7HT Mag and Penn 4/0 is significant.
Surf rods using a Penn 4/0 usually have a size 25 or larger stripper.
For guides, Alps have a good reputation as does Fuji. If the setup were a little lighter, Minima guides could be considered.

Don Becker

Slide bait is used for live bait fishing. It involves casting a heavy weight to the desired location, then clipping on an 'Aussie Slide', with a leader and live little fishy attached. Hopefully there is some incline so gravity helps the little fishy swim out to the end of the line, and to help overcome any incoming surf. Heavy mono is used to prevent getting cut on the rocks where this technique is most useful.

I was wondering if the 20 size guide might be too small for the Penn. And if it were bumped up to a 25, would it still be okay to go straight to the 12s? On a spiral wrap, is it most beneficial for the transition guides to be as small as possible to reduce lateral torque?

Yes, the 2 reels are night and day.

So, what size rub line/ shock leader will you be using? To get maximum distance with a 4/0 you will need to cast 8 ounces. Will the blank take a hard cast with 8 ounces? (a 4 to 12oz rating may not be very accurate). Since 8 ounces puts you outside the safe envelope of casting 60# mono, a rub line will be required of about 100#. Remember the abrasion you will get from the rocks. This means the knot will need to be on the spool in order to get 6 to 8 turns of line around the spool prior to casting. How big will a 60/100 knot be? Will it go through a size 12 guide?

Are you in Hawaii?

Don Becker

Thank you Don. I had not yet come to that... This is a new reel, new setup. I have been suffering on too light of gear up to this point, using braid into a rub leader on a smaller setup, and getting cut on the rocks too often. A bimini into Allbright is kinda big, not sure how big is too big for a #12 guide. 80lb mainline would be marginally safe for 8oz as long as the line is in good shape.

I am definitely aware of at least 10lbs line wt./oz casting weight. I have broken 60lb leader casting 6oz..


Can you offer some insight on this setup/ rod? I think I hear in your words that you are very familiar with this type of gear.

I am not in Hawaii, I just visit when I can.

X2 on size 10 runner guides. 20 or 16 then 10's rest of the way. Make sure when rod is under load the line doesn't hit your hand on fore grip. If you can get away with a #16 use it. Good luck,MH

I myself use nothing but virtus lites guides on all my conventional Rod setups. You can go with the titanium guides but will say that the stainless that American tackle have is far superior than anyone else's on the market. I have two rods that I have not washed off trying to get them to tarnish or rust and not a single spec. I use 16mm runners for the knots and sea weed. Many think it's to big but with 50-80lbs Shock leader knot you will be glad you did.

" A bimini into Allbright is kinda big, not sure how big is too big for a #12 guide."
As mentioned, size 16 is appropriate for the runners and tiptop. The problem is the blank is probably not up to the task. Remember the 4 to 12 ounce rating.

A typical setup for a 4/0 would be along the lines of 30, 25, 20, 20, size 16 runners and tip top. This should work satisfactory for 4/0 & 6/0 reels and 60 & 80# line.
You may need larger if you go to bigger rub line. Size 20 is not uncommon.
To ease the issue of knots going through guides, you can build a dental floss ramp on the rub line side of the knot. The dental floss needs to be non-waxed. After making the ramp, coat with ladies finger nail polish.

In my opinion, you should not be building the blank for a 4/0 and slide bait.

My recommendation is to set it up for a Daiwa 40 SHV. First, have 100 yards of 50# braid. Second, fill with 40# mono. Use 60# rub line and size 12 guides. Some lines do have better strength/diameters ratios and you may need to be selective. You can buy smaller slide clips to fix your needs.

Finally, be careful if/when you buy titanium guides. Some brands are softer than others and the ring may come out. Waxing your rod once a year and washing after use has worked for me in preventing corrosion. Aside from that, stainless steel guides tend to have thinner frames. Although it may seem trivial, it matters when casting into a 30mph head wind.

Hope this helps,
Don

Don Becker

So, evidently there is only one correct way to build a rod....... right?


:)



The reason for the Ballistic blank being mated with that reel is due to the issue of travel, and hauling long rods around on a plane. I live in trout country. When I was selecting this blank, some people (given, on the internet) say that this particular blank casts 8oz fairly well, but not much beyond that. I do also have an Akios 757, but it does not carry as much line as the 4/0.



This is a travel rod. If I only had to commute to the beach, and back, it would likely be a one piece.


Based on the responses I have heard here today, and subsequent thinking, the titanium guides are out. I think I need to buy the duralite Virtus guides in enough sizes to test cast different setups with this blank/ reel, and see if I can come up with a winning configuration.

Don, a question on your typical setup for a 4/0.... that sounds like it is for a standard setup, not a spiral wrap? If so, do you have any comments about the 4/0 with a spiral wrap? I was under the impression that for the guides to the side of the blank, as it passes from the top, to the underside of the blank, should be kept as close to the blank as possible.



What is the best way to attach a tip top to the blank and have it be removable? Tape? or what kind of adhesive? I will probably have to try at least a couple of different tip tops.



Thank you all for the thoughts. This is very helpful, if confusing.

Chris Harban Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, evidently there is only one correct way to
> build a rod....... right?
>


EXACTLY :)

>
> The reason for the Ballistic blank being mated
> with that reel is due to the issue of travel, and
> hauling long rods around on a plane.

I also travel and use 14' rods. The tip section is 8'. Since the distances traveled can approach 5,000 miles, I find it better to ship to the destination hotel.
Simply ship to
your name, Guest, Dates
Hotel Name
Address

When you generate the FedEx label, you can also print a return label. Put the return label on your tube, leave it with the front desk and call FedEd for a pick up. So far I have not had any problems.

>I live in trout country.

?

>When I was selecting this
> blank, some people (given, on the internet) say
> that this particular blank casts 8oz fairly well,
> but not much beyond that.

I have never used this particular rod. What bothers me is the 4 ounce minimum rating. I would be concerned with creating a condition similar to high sticking.
This is where the lead fails to travel outside the arc of the tip. When the leads closes to less than 90 degrees the stress increase on the tip section and the upper part can snap.

> I do also have an Akios 757, but it does not carry as much line as the 4/0.

Do you intend to fish for GT or shark?

>
>
> This is a travel rod. If I only had to commute
> to the beach, and back, it would likely be a one
> piece.
>

Maybe a better question would be, does it meet the requirements to fish the desired species?

Talon-Graphite makes some very nice Ulua rods that are popular in Hawaii. If you look up their website, click on the GT (Ulua) link. I'm sure something will catch your eye.
Give them a call and explain your needs.See if they are willing to convert a 2 piece to a 4 piece. It never hurts to ask.

>
> Based on the responses I have heard here today,
> and subsequent thinking, the titanium guides are
> out. I think I need to buy the duralite Virtus
> guides in enough sizes to test cast different
> setups with this blank/ reel, and see if I can
> come up with a winning configuration.
>


> Don, a question on your typical setup for a
> 4/0.... that sounds like it is for a standard
> setup, not a spiral wrap? If so, do you have
> any comments about the 4/0 with a spiral wrap?

OK, when you cast with vigor, or violence, and the line is not centered as it passes through the butt/stripper guide, you may experience the dreaded mystery break off. This usually happens when the line is traveling from either the left or right side side of the reel. It usually causes the shock knot to strike the stripper guide on the same side as the line was leaving the reel. A few repetitions of this type of casting and you will wonder where the rub line went. (I am getting punchy) The solution to this is accomplished during line retrieval time. When the shock leader knot reaches the tip top, start winding line to the center of the spool. When the knot reaches about 4 or 5 inches from the the reel, push the line hard over (30 to 45 degrees) to the left or right. When the knot is to the side, start winding the rub line to the center. Having the knot on the side will reduce the number of times you experience the knot cutting your thumb. On the cast the knot will self center and hopefully have minimal impact with the stripper guide.

I do not know when I attended my first long distance casting tournament. I did build my first Ulua rod in 1981. During that time, I have not seen either a long distance casting rod or any Ulua rod in Hawaii have a spiral wrap. Hopefully the above will give a clue.

> I was under the impression that for the guides to
> the side of the blank, as it passes from the top,
> to the underside of the blank, should be kept as
> close to the blank as possible.
>

>
> What is the best way to attach a tip top to the
> blank and have it be removable? Tape? or what
> kind of adhesive? I will probably have to try at
> least a couple of different tip tops.
>

The hot melt glue by Flex Coat works for me.

For removal of the tip (and I believe it was on this board), attach a rubber band to paper clip, and attach the clip to the tip top.
Stretch the rubber band to create tension on the tip top. Heat the tip top barrel. When the glue melts, the tip top will snap off. Take care not to over heat the blank.

>
> Thank you all for the thoughts. This is very
> helpful, if confusing.

My Bad?

Hopefully the confusion will clear.

Don Becker

You might want to look into the FG knot.
Run braid to your heavier mono/flouro leader ending at your sinker.
The FG is the smallest cleanest knot for connecting braid to heavy leader material.

[www.youtube.com]

Regards
Dave

Fishing is Life the rest is just Details

Don, Thank you for the thoughts..

I have considered shipping my rods in advance... In some countries this may be a great idea, and to a safe location, great. However, some countries,, I could not feel safe in trusting that my gear would be there when I arrive, this is based on experience. In addition, traveling with a 5' tube is way lower key than traveling with an 8' tube, it changes the game a bit. A 9' tube is a target. I prefer a dingy backpack and small tubes. Still, it is an option, and when I get serious about targeting 50-100 lb Trevally, those Talon blanks look great. I had seen those. I wish they could be made in 4 pieces.

This rod is inspired by surf fishing on the Pacific side of Costa Rica, fishing from the rocky points that jut out into the ocean. Roosterfish, Snook, Jacks, and whatever comes along, sliding finger mullet and sardines caught with a cast net in nearby lagoons.. I am guessing that this rod would land decent sized GT, as well, but probably having only limited control, to none, on bigger ones. Shark, no way. This is the wrong rig for shark. Besides, without a proper leader it would probably be a brief tug of war anyway, on any decent sized shark.

I appreciate your opinion on the spiral wrapped power surf rod. It will be a good experiment to mock it up and see, and watch for issues that you mention. I am less attached now to the spiral, but have to cast it just to see. I will learn something. Have you ever built, or casted a big rod with a spiral wrap? I have not.


Finally... 'Bad?"...... No way! Thank you for sharing. Part of learning often involves recognizing one's own folly and misguided ideas. Not being able to entertain critique, or challenging ideas is weak.


Dave, First, there is some braid involved, but it is deep in the reel, only a good run will bring it out, 80 lb hollow Jerry Brown spliced to mono. Braid does not like slides, or rocks. The FG knot, I have not learned to love that knot. I have tried it a number of times, but I do not like how it fails in my testing. Perhaps I am not tying it correctly, but it is a pretty simple knot, and I am good with knots. I just don't like it. I will likely break some more of them in the future to see if I change my mind. I like the Bimini twist into Allbright for braid to mono. I know those knots well.

Maybe a spiral wrap is not appropriate for pendulum casting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2016 05:48PM by Chris Harban.

Hi Dave,

>You might want to look into the FG knot.
>Run braid to your heavier mono/flouro leader ending at your sinker.
>The FG is the smallest cleanest knot for connecting braid to heavy leader material.

I'm not sure we are on the same page.

A standard rig for slide bait fishing with a 4/0 would be something like the following:
60# mainline
125# run or shockleader (maybe 25')
Swivel to stainless steel to swivel (5')
Swivel to ring
Ring to 40 or 50# break line
Breakline to claw or equivalent sinker

When the bait is slid out, it stops at the upper swivel.
When the fish hits the bait, it moves to the ring and then snaps the break line.

Where would you use the braid?

Hey Chris,

>Have you ever built, or casted a big rod with a spiral wrap? I have not.

No. Never have and am sure that I never will.
I have hooked the worlds largest "Oahu" and did not feel a hint of axial torque. ;)
However, an acquaintance built a rod (15') for me that was not spined correctly and the tip section twists on the handle. Lesson learned.

Best wishes,
Don

Don Becker

Aloha Chris. From my experience with all 3 of the Ballistics, none of them are suitable for slide bait in Hawaii waters. The 35 you are planning to wrap can throw 8oz but to me, 6-7oz is perfect. While casting on Christmas Island the 40 couldn't handle a 70lb GT. The reel would have been emptied at a lighter drag setting OR the rod would have snapped IF we didn't point the rod at the fish with 25lbs of drag.

Since the Ballistics are rather good blanks\rods I would spend the money on Titanium framed guides so you can have the best guides on a good blank. Just my opinion.

Thank you for the feedback in this thread. This is why I joined this forum.


How are you liking that Stella, Mark?

I don't like Stella's. I LOVE them. LOL