When you want to put a thin first coat on your threads do you thin the high build epoxy or use the lite build product. If you thin, what do you usually use?

This comes up about once every couple of weeks.

Some thin, some don't.

Some use lite, some use high build.

Basically no rod epoxy manufacturer recommends the use of an agent to thin. Epoxy molecules need to chemically find each other to bond. Adding a foreign material to epoxy hinders the ability of the epoxy molecules to find each other. The more you add, the thinner and easier it is to apply, but the tradeoff is you're fooling with the chemical balance the mfg intended.

To my knowledge (I might be wrong here) Flex coat is the only brand that says their product can withstand a very small amount of acetone, but they still do not recommend the use of any thinner.

My take on things - learn to use the product as intended. If you can't achieve the results you desire, try a different product, but in most cases proper technique can solve the vast majority of problems people seem to experience.

My $.02. In 36 years of rodbuilding I've never found a need to thin any brand of epoxy I've used, and I can't imagine I'll ever find a need to in the future. I'm sure you'll get some posts on the other side of the coin to follow...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2015 12:10PM by John E Powell.

If you want thinner coats, just use a stiffer brush - put on less epoxy. A high build epoxy can be used to apply a very thin coat.

.................

John Powell and Tom Kirkman, good advice. Might be a good topic for a sticky post or library.

What Bad Effects would one get from thinning out a high build finish ??

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,

In general a softer more flexible finish, and possibly other issues as well. When done carefully using only a few drops of solvent, things are likely to turn out just fine, but if someone blindly pours a bunch of solvent into a batch of finish, it could result in the finish being more like Jell-O than an epoxy coating. Even just a few percent mix by volume can have significant effects.

Read this article carefully [www.westsystem.com]

Pay close attention to the last graph in the article. The top left corner corresponds to the compression strength of epoxy with no solvent. Then look at what happens when you add 5% of various solvents.

Given that we are using the epoxy on fishing rods where the forces and pressures are quite small in the grand scheme of things, we can get away with a lot of things that might lead to catastrophic failures if done in an aerospace application. If you want to thin epoxy, keep the solvent to a minimum.

Tom, if the link to West System is out of order, let me know and I'll forward the article to Bill directly. Since I believe they are referred to in the sleeving materials and I don't see external advertising, I posted the link.

Joe

Joe,
Right on.

A long time ago, I did a series of experiments where I added acetone to an epoxy mix - a few drops at a time. I was working with small batches.

It did not take much solvent, before the cured finish began to take on a rubbery effect.

So, since a touch too much leads to really bad effects, I have since decided to never mix anything in with the epoxy.

If I need the finish to be a touch thinner, I just add a touch of heat, and I can get the finish to be as thin as I would like.

Be safe

I do as Tom suggested - stiffer brush and less epoxy if I'm using a hi build along with heat. If I am doing guide wraps I use a lite build so it will flow easily into the tunnels again applying a little heat.


Jon

Hay Joe
That artical is a bunch of BULL
This does not happen I have added a Mid - Temp Laquer thinner And mixed it in the cup - Never Had A Jello Type of mix Yes you can go over board and mix TOO much and I have BUT a little at a time and it gets thinn You get how much on practice - Dryes in 4 - 5 hours and is the same as nothing at all

All of a Sudden there is a lot of things that I HAVE NEVER HAD HAPPEN to any of my finish that I have thinned

Roger
What are you just going with what everone tells you to do -- BULL
This crap does not happen when thinnig finish
I have used a Mid- Temp Laquer thinner And now use A Urethane Reducer
These products thinn it well and I have NEVER HAD A JELLO mix

You guys know Dam Well It DOES NOT ---- And I NEVER HAVE USED ACETONE -- That is PROBABLE YOUR PROBLEM


These posts are BULL I never have had a JELLO EFFECT ---- Put Equal Parts in A Cup - Just MIX IT WELL

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2015 06:49PM by bill boettcher.

Frank

Get a pint can of Mid- Temp Laquer Thinner from Home depot
Put Two CC in a cup Add 5 - 6 drops of the thinner in to the cup - Mix Well

And see for yourself -- NO Jello

Bill - willierods.com

Calm down Bill. Sit down and have a drink of something, anything to calm your nerves.

Bill,

You asked what happens. Those are the effects on the properties of the finish.

The combination of the 3rd and 4th plots show why Flex Coat recommends acetone as the best thinner for their epoxy, and likely most any epoxy finish. Plot 3 shows that acetone reduces the viscosity the most with with the lowest concentration. Plot 4 shows that acetone has the lowest reduction in the strength of the 3 options used in the test. If you believe what Flex Coat says and what West System has published, acetone is the best option if you wish to thin your epoxy.

I have gotten pretty close to a Jello like finish using alcohol. It was all I had on hand that day, a slip of hand, and I added too much. I used it to make white silk go clear on thread wraps holding a reel on an UL rod with a TN handle. The end result was spongy. Since the build went to my father who doesn't fish all that much these days, I put a coat of finish that was not thinned over top and let it go to see how it would wear over time. As shown in the article, it is the worst option to use, but in a pinch it will work with moderation.

As I said above, we are building fishing rods, and the forces and pressures experienced by a finish are very rarely ever going to get anywhere close to causing the finish to fail. We can get by with thinning epoxy in moderation. I'm glad that you have success thinning your epoxy, and I gladly thin mine when I want white silk to go clear.

By the way, the change in the compression strength of the epoxies thinned with 5% of solvent is comparable to the difference in tensile strength between graphite and fiberglass fibers. Wrap the same pattern around the same mandrel with fiberglass and graphite, and you will get a different rod. Just like a thinned finish is going to be a softer and more flexible, the glass rod will be a bit less powerful. Thinned finish may not be a bad thing in some applications. A coat of slightly softer finish on a heavy offshore rod could be just the trick to help prevent crazing at the guide feet (I don't know for sure), but go too far and things may shift under the finish and make things worse.

double post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2015 08:59PM by Joe Vanfossen.

Bill,
When I did my experiments I went to an extreme with the thinner.

Try mixing equal parts of part a, part b, and thinner and tell me what you get. Of course that is an extreme example, but YES, the finish gets soft and gummy if too much thinner is added to the mix.

My point was simply this:

It too much makes the finish gummy, how do I really know if - even adding a bit of thinner; how it is affecting the finish. Simply put - I don't know; so I err on the side of caution and use no thinner.

An even larger reason for myself is that I like to use only a single coat of finish on a rod. When working in large batches, I try not to use an extra drying time cycle on a rod. So, I just simply prefer to use no thinner in the finish because I want to be able to deliver a finished rod with one coat.

But, certainly Bill - if thinning the finish works for you - by all means continue to make wonderful rods using this technique.

As one of my supervisors said when I was a young engineer. "I am not paying you for me to tell you how to do your job. I am paying you to DO the job. How, you do the job - as long as the final product is up to standards is great."

Or, as another common saying goes, "There is more than one way to skin a cat." One can use a dull knife, a cleaver, a hatchet, a scalpel, or what ever might work."

Rod building is the same way. Take a 100 different rod builders and they can all make their rods using different methods, finishes, finish application; but the final products are all beautiful, functional and work very well for the job at hand.

Have a great day.

I have experimented with different solvents to thin my mixtures . I use only a few drops of any solvent but I have used both lacquer thinner or acetone with good results either way, just don't thin too much. try on a bare wrap on an experimental rod to test the effectiveness of different solvents. Good luck.

Being a total newbie at this, I should stay out of this conversation, but discretion has never been one of my long suits. I've been using Flexcoat, both regular and lite. I apply the lite first, to get a thin penetrating coat.

I've followed the tutorial on Flexcoat's website, with one small modification. They use a heat gun to warm up the first coat. I bought an infrared lamp to do the same thing. Using a heat gun or hair dryer seems to me to be a very good way to get dust and/or whatnot into your finish.

The IR lamp moves no air, and produces no visible light, so I made a "fixture" for it. A drop cord with the shield removed. I added an extension that screws into the socket. This piece adds an outlet on each side behind the extended socket. I put two very small night lights in the sockets. These things let me know the lamp is on, so I don't lay it down with the lamp on and start a fire. I bought a 150W lamp. I think I could have bought a 60. I will if and when this one gives up the ghost.

I start by painting the guide feet with lite. Then heat with the IR to make the epoxy penetrate around the guide feet. Then apply a thin coat to the rest of the wrap, heat it again, and remove all the epoxy I can with a dry brush. One day later I apply a final coat of regular build, level it, and set it turning.

Don't know if this is an "approved" method, but it seems to work well for me.
Chhers,
GK

If it gives you the finish that you want, then it is approved :) It sounds like a good method.

Chris Richer
Iroquois ON