I've been asked a question that I can't answer very well concerning the different type of guides. The Individual that asked me the question wants a wire line rod, but not with roller guides. He said that he knows of a new guide that will hold-up to wire. This is over my head, and I'm going to refer him to someone that has a little more knowledge on the subject, and can advise him a little better than me. But this has brought up some questions that I've had for some time now. I think I know the bare basics about the different catagories of guides out there such as spinning, casting, low profile, but when it comes to type such as Hardloy, SIC, Alconite, and the materials such as Aluminum oxide, Silicone carbide.

I can't explain accurately what the differences, and there intended applications, are. I've done a search but none of the posts specifically talk about the type materials used in guides and there applications. I see a difference in price, and I'm assuming this is based on the hardness and heat resistant (and other desirable characteristics such as weight and corrosion resistance ) I assume over-all that SIC is the best, Alconite comes in second, and Hardloy taking third, or is it best to ask about Aluminum oxide verses Silicone carbide. I think I understand about Stainless steel verses Titanium frames, but not really sure. Weight? corrosion resistance? Boy I've got a lot to learn.

If this has been discussed in any previous issues of rod maker, I will see if any copies are still available, and purchase it. My last question is... Is there a guide (other than roller guides) that will hold up to wire?
Any help you can give on these questions are invaluable, and greatly appreciated.

The SIC rings will handle it, and so will rings made of Silicon Nitride. In fact, these were marketed for several years as being particularly good for wire lines and also being very resistant to damage from shock.

Most of the better ring materials can withstand use with wire line. But you need to select the proper style and type as the connection between ring and frame is not substantial enough on some guide types to effectively keep the ring in the frame over long term use with wire line.

We have several manufacturers and distributors of guides here on this board. I expect at least some of them will chime in and give you a more specific answer to your question within the next 24 hours or so.

...............

Dwayne,
To be brief, Carbide or Carmet guides would probalby hold up the best to wire line, but as Tom pointed out the ring/frame bond can become dislodged over time.
With rod repair, in any area where wire line is routinely used it seems just about any guide will succumb to the ravages of the unforgiving metal line contact and guides of any sort are commonly repaced whether by grooving or with rings missing.

Also don't count too heavily on roller guides from grooving. There are some newer titanium coated rollers, but whether they will protect over long periods of time remain to be seen.

I would like to know my self the long term prospects about any of the currently available guides against wire line abrasion.

Rich

I guess I'll throw my two cents into the ring, since I have worked with the manufacturers of these inserts, as well as rod manufacturers and builders for many years.
The guide inserts that are supplied to the fishing rod industry are all a type of ceramic/aluminum oxide materials. Most of the differences are because of the raw materials themselves, meaning grade, shape of the powdered particles, and how they blend together in the process. Some of the raw materials compact better than others. This is why when you check the finished surfaces under a very powerful microscope, you will find what appears to be pits in some, more than others.
The process in the manufacturing of these inserts being the powder is pressed into a mold, fired, ground, and then polished. The tighter the particles fit together, the smoother the end result. It is imperative that the polishing is done correctly. Most of the materials used today fit just dandy into the fishing rod industry, as well as the different fishing lines that are run through them.
Although, some raw materials finish out harder than others, when these steps are completed. SIC for instance, is the hardest of the inserts supplied. Keep in mind that the harder the material, the more brittle it is also, which allows for cracked rings. Most fisherman take good care of their custom rods, so this is minimized.There are other of these raw materials used as guide ring inserts that are more than adequate, with excellent durability. Fortunately, we have many good choices.
These inserts can be produced in a variety of different colors, coatings, and shapes. For instance, we at this time are working on some other colors to allow the custom rod builders more options in their product offering to the customer. Usually we must introduce and offer these new items to a manufacturer because of the volume that they purchase, as was the case with the TiN and TiCH items. Once this is accomplished, then items can be offered to custom rod builders, and keep the cost down. Great attention to detail is taken in the development of these items before they are introduced to the industry. I must believe that other suppliers approach new items in the same manner.
I personally have never seen an insert grooved from the use of wire line. But I have heard from our customer base that builds wire line rods, the only materials that do not groove are SIC and the Carbolloy/Carmet ring.
Now saying this, my personal opinion to the pricing of the different inserts comes down to the cost of the material, it's manufacturing costs, and probably marketing expenses. Note that the reputable suppliers offer the same product lines, just under different names or descriptions. Some have large marketing budgets, and some do not.
When looking at ring guides, I suggest taking the following into consideration. Be sure that the inner and outer diameters of the inserts have a nice consistent radius. Certainly not flat surfaces or edges on either. You will also want to check that the frames have been tumbled enough to round all of the edges. I do not believe that straight or sharp edges on a round sleek custom rod is appealing. Choose guides that meet the applications for the purpose in which each rod is to be used. Use suppliers that take great strides in paying attention to detail.
Bob Batson
Rainshadow Rod Blanks
Forecast Rod Components

In MA. I tie a lot of wire line trolling rods. Carbaloy is still the favored guide especially the H.D. Mildrum guides **try to find the braced 18 16 14!***. Here is what I found: 1) They still groove after heavy constant use. I have a commercial fisherman who gets a maybe 2 years out of the guides. 2) The welded rings are more likely to dislodge than a Fuji SIC framed guide. The tip tops more so the guides. I built a 6 1/2 ft rod summer of 2000 for a friend who fishes alot with Fuji SIC guides and . So far the still look fresh.

Well my $.02 worth
1. I'm a fisherman/rod builder.
2.I don't use wire line.
3. I have become friends with a professional rod builder whose customers are about 75% Chesepeake Bay charter boat operators, all of them troll with wire line.
4. over the wekend we discussed this very subject
5. As another gentleman said the traditional guides are carbaloy.
6. My friend has finally gotten about 1/2 of his customers to switch to Aluminun Oxide in one form or another.
7. The replacement time for the "ceramics" is about the same as for carbaloy but it's because his customers handle his tackle so rough that guides have to be replaced due to bent/broken frames, loose,cracked, missing rings. These rods get used 7days a week from late April thru Mid-late Nov. My builder friend has yet to find a grooved guide ring.
8. If this gent is a charter Capt. you might want to discuss this with him as to "bang for his buck".
9. Roller guides require a substantial amount of maint. and I really don't know if anyone makes a carbaloy roller or a "ceramic roller. Cause I don't do that kind of fishing. Hope this helps. Warren

As I said the information ya'll supply is invaluable. I'm printing these posts and into my reference book they will go. Thank you all again.