All the M&Ms hope everyone enjoyed their Thanksgiving Holiday!

Now lets to get down to Micro Business!

Previous Volumes of the M&M threads on Rodbuilding.org established a communication link for custom rodbuilders who are using, or desire to use, micro guide technology to build a better rod. Volume 3 deals with a number of specific items identified in previous Volumes.

Specific information is needed from custom builders and/or manufacturers. Any rod builder or manufacturer involved in building micro rods or supporting this new process with guides or tiptop is encouraged to post.

The emails are flying and other Internet boards are buzzing in attempts to keep up or catch up! This thread will be the place for both!

The information presented in the first two Volumes of the M&M threads has been centered on casting rods focused on bass fishing rods. The initial work presented in Rodmaker Magazine described a casting rod utilizing a specific guide set up that took advantage of the micro technology and the spiral wrap.

Since that publication other builders have utilized the micro guides on conventional bass rods in all power classifications. Just because the guides are small is no reason not to consider them for many task specific rods used by bass fishermen. If you have utilized the micro technology for other applications you are urged to reveal your experiences.


The M&M team has been advised that spinning rods using the micro system have been built whose performance is astounding. Anyone who has experiences with spinning rods is urged to share the information with other custom rods builders.

In the original article on Micro Guides, in Rodmaker magazine, the term of "tame the line" was used due to the preconceived notion that the line exiting from the reel needed to be controlled prior to reaching the smaller micro guides. At that time, the micro guides were only used for the running guides. It was thought the line slap, standing wave, or slack in the line should be eliminated prior to reaching the small micro guides.

In summary, the M&Ms, a large group of custom builders and supporting vendors and manufacturers are seeking specific information concerning rod type, set up configuration and market potentials for the micro rod market.

1. How many custom builders actually have micro products in their possession? Really and truthfully how big is the micro movement - just a few nuts or many serious builders? This information is vital to justify the need for new product design and manufacturing costs. Brand and product comparison are not the primary issue. Existing market and future potential will tell the tale.

2. Rod types in service with evaluations (+ or -)? Please include type of rod, action, power, build style (conventional or spiral) and casting or pitching distance. Please include details of all guides on rod related to frame (dbl or singe ft) and ring size.

3. How does line control fit into all of this? (Casting distance)

4. Special request for spinning rod information; same information as Item 2.

5. Reports of communication with fisherpersons that will be beneficial to other rod builders. Why are the micros better? What benefits do they provide to the angler?

6. Any discovery or build technique that will improve the process for all?

Something that I was discussing with Bob McKamey this morning, is that these so called "micro guides" aren't at all new. Fishermen and rod builders in other parts of the world have been using them for over a decade. So their performance and worth isn't at all suspect - it has already been proven. Whether or not they'll work for the type/s of rods you build is something you'll have to experiment with.


..................

Tom;
I totally agree, but for some reason anytime you enter a product into a new market it seems that its use hast to be re-legitimatized before people will except it’s credibility regardless of how long it has been used elsewhere.

Very true.

..............

First time I saw Micro guides was on a rod build by Chris Ward from England. He did a miniture rod with a tiny reel off a keychain, constructed teh reel seat with insert by hand, adn even had a mini checkrboard EVA as one of the grips. I saw the rod in 2001, but I think he had built it a few years prior. Teh Fuji MKSG's were available as far back as 2003 that I know of as I have a Fuji Japan catalouge, I suspect teh guides Chris used were Fuji MKSG's.

As far as fishing, I used an 8'3 Spinning rod (GUSA C83L) with a Diawa Tierra 2000 reel with 6 & 10# Fireline all season, casting 3/8 - 1oz jigs. I used very small guides as a stripper, a TATSG 12 & 8, the rest of the rod had MKSG 2.5's. As a test I built teh same exact blank with a somewhat normal layout, 25-16-8 and all size 5 T-LDBSG's, so I could fish the 2 rods side by side. To my surprise, both rods casted just about the same, I dind't bother measuring distances, nothingfunky happened when I casted either, no line slap or pile up at teh gudies. The biggest difference between teh 2 rods was that I could feel teh size 25 stripper guide on the rod. It was REALLy noticeable, the few guys I gave the rod to noticed it as well. The problem I currently have is I broke that rod trying to lift a 5# FLuke up onto the jetty where I was fishing. Durability - I amquite hard on my gear, I dont' store rods in a locker or on teh side of a boat, but I do transport them quite a bit to show peopel my rods and to bring them to NERBs gatherings. I usually will grab 15-20 rods at one time and wiggle them into the back of a car/truck, guides tangled, andgetting beat to crap. I feel more confortable with teh durability of the MKSG's because they are so small tehy are impossible to tangle with other guides.

My personal conclusion - teh scaling down of the guides didn't hurt casting distance one bit. The reduction of weight was due to the size of the stripper guide, I honestly couldnt' compare the Micro guides to the heavy single foots. Sensitivity, I could care less about. Durability, I prefer the smaller guides. I dont' build any rods of this nature for anyone else, but if I did the biggest concern I would have is telling them how to run line through the guides, it does take some getting used to. I loaned the rod to my Dad, adn that was his biggest gripe...why he reeled the line in past the gudies is beyond me, but he did, lol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2008 12:27PM by Billy Vivona.

1. I've been using the micro guides since Feb, and every rod I've build this year has been with micro guides.

2. unfortunately, only one of these rods was built for me, and I haven't fished it yet. I've had no complaints regarding any of them to date. they've all been spinninng and the transition guides were Fuji alconites. I'd personally like to see a micro tip top that was built better than what I've seen available. All the spinning rods were batson RX7 medium power, fast or x-fast action.
The one rod I've built for myself was an ISB802.75, set up as a casting rod with spiral wrap. All guides were micros, other than the tip top, but it still needs an on the water evaluation.

3. I've not had a problem or any complaints regarding casting distance, especially wit hthe spinning rods. on the casting rod, it took some tweaking on the spiral and the placement of the first (stripper) guides, but I was able to get it worked out during the test casting to make me happy.

4. as mentioned above, most of my experience building with micros has been spining rods. Set up as i would any other spinning rod, but use micros for the running guides, no issues.

5. i've gotten no input on why they think the rods are better or what advantages they feel the micro guides provides.

i've had a few people say something about threading the guides and my answer has always been the same. if you can thread a hook, you can thread these guides, plus you don't have to worry about sharp points. rarely do i have to thread a rod on the water. most the time, its done at the house/shop/etc with the aid of good light and no rush to get a lure back in the water.

...very happy with the overall feel and casting results of several rods that I've used #4sf guides on lately - will test smaller sf's soon.

6' ul and light spinning: #20 byag, #10 byag, #4 Batson sf choke and running guides, concept method employed. Split cork grip w/ Aero seat. Questioned using a larger (#5 or #6) choke guide, but the #4 seems to work fine.

7' m and mf casting: #8 blnag, #6blnag (bumper), #6 blag (1st 180deg bottom guide), #4's to tip. Setup designated for vertical fishing (jigging lake trout), if intended for casting I would employ a spiral wrap or conventional guides-on-top.

(...C'mon Santa, how 'bout some larger-tubed, bridged tip tops!)

I find the low height of the guide assists in threading and have my customers threading them pretty quickly once you show them a trick.

Cut the line off where there is no curl. The end of the line is straight. Pinch the line between your fingers and put the rod between in the V between your two finger tips, run the line straight up the blank through the guide. If I use a long enough piece in front of my fingers, I don't use my other hand to thread the guide. Just let my fingers slide around the guide and catch the line on the other side, move up to next guide.

Benefits reported by customers (bass casting rods): less line fouling in rod lockers - easier to put in tubes and better with just laying loose rods in locker, weight, line "slap", lower profile on the deck - not as easy to step on. Most of my customers say they "feel" more when using the micros. I have yet to have a micro guide come back pulled out or broken off.

Standard build: Batson 6 (SF),4,3s to tip, both spiral and conventional. Found I really like about a size 3 on a simple spiral as the 90 deg guide. When using a size 6 as the 90 deg guide, it personally took a huge beating. Going down to a three lowers the profile significantly and increases durability.

Types of rods in service: all medium- light to Heavy power with x-fast to moderate action. 6' - 7'11". All techniques (weak on flippin and pitchin rods).

Casting distance has been reported as satisfactory in all cases, most times exceeding customer expectations.

I have not built a customer rod using guides other than micros since June of this year.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2008 12:56PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

I have been using the Batsons since January. I have them on bass rods ranging from dropshot/shakey head spinning rods to heavy flipping rods. I have had the same reports as Alex in regards to storage, durability, etc.

My standard casting setup has been: Dbl 6, Sgl 5, sgl 4, sgl 3's to the tip. I have been setting up most of them as Forhan style spiral's. I initially used a size 3 wrapped as a tip. It worked fine on rods up to 15lb. mono. On the rods that 17lb. and up and noticed the stiffness of the line causing it to pinch in the ring during a pitch. I then changed the tips on those rods out to Size 4 top's w/ the split tube and the hang dissapeared. I did switch to size 4 tips w/ tubes for all of my builds.

The tip tops available are the only negative for me at this point. I currently have the batson tops w/ split tubes on my rods. I will be testing the Fuji soon as I understand that it is a supported ring top. The manufacturers really need to step up and design a top for these size rings that will work for us.

I have only built a few spinning rods with size 3 running guides. My setup was 16, 8, 3's to the tip. This was for rods using 6-8lb. mono. On my personal rods use small dia. braid tied to a 12-15' leader of 6-8lb. mono w/ a blood knot. I have used the above guide setup for a dropshot rod I built myself. The rings have been able to pass the knot satisfactorily, but I am not really casting this setup any distance. I will be testing it with a shakey rod over the next few weeks and will be able to determine if the ring can pass that knot and retain casting distance.

I have not had any rings pop out, or frames distort. I have the same problem with Alex with the transition guides on spirals and size 6 or 7 guides, I destroy them in my rod locker...this hasn't happened with the smaller frame size.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2008 01:47PM by Scott Sheets.

It is my pleasure to share some very REAL numbers of sales of the "Mini Guides" in the past 18 months. I usually do not share these types of numbers as I know our so called competitors will take advantage and decide to take a piece of the pie that we are trying to create, but that is business. These are very real numbers that make our jobs easier when it comes to making decisions on the validity of certain products or projects. Numbers don't lie and it shows us as a TEAM here at Batson Enterprises that this or projects like this have LEGS and will create a nice nitche for this company and the industry / Art /Craft as a whole. The dynamics of the Mini Guide is not something new to the World wide industry just to the USA market. Yes it does need to be validated with in the USA market and this is what is going on here. It is also something that will set you apart from the "Factory " rods currently being built, especially since it does make a difference. But i can honestly tell you that once all your data and research is validated a "factory "rod will be produced, that is the reality of it. Case in point the Split Grip. Which is also a feather in the cap of the Custom Rodbuilder whom has the time and patience to test and do the work. I am one of these Custom Rodbuilders who like to "Tinker" and try new things. Anyway back to the numbers>> Batson Enterprises has to date in the past 18 months sold over 12,000 mini guides and tops..WOW not bad for a Nitche product. We have only been selling these as a special order item to our distributors. Many of them have decided to take the chance and it has paid off for them. The input i get back from them is they cannot keep enough in stock, or what other combinations are available? this is one of the ways we determine weather or not to STOCK an item and which style. Our distributors and the response from you "The Rod Builder" means a lot to us.
So there you go>> REAL numbers. The Fine folks that have been promoting this "Concept" have done a Great Job. My personal thanks to Steve Gardner for being the first one to approach me over 2 years ago asking about such a product. This is the HEART of the Custom Rod Building Community. And as i am one of these "Rod Builders"with the passion for different / better/ advanced/cutting edge/ and all that goes into it i am proud that this GREAT Craft/ART is moving forward.
I would "Try IT"" why not..

Bill Batson
CEO
Batson Enterprises
Rainshadow/Forecast/ALPS Product lines
877-875-2381
www.batsonenterprises.com
batson@batsonenterprises.com

A couple of years ago, after a nice visit and rod building tip session with Ray Adams, he gave me a set of micro runners. They were much smaller than anything I had ever seen. ( 3.5) Using some of the current advice at that time to: 'use the smallest guide that will get the job done' ... I stripped down my go-to spin rod [ SC111 5'6 ML ) and I put a Tenn handle on it, Split Grip and used an Titan High Frame 16, then an #8 and then the 3.5 runners and a 3.5 as the tip. I throw 6 XL mono line from a small Cetus reel. That rod always cast well but this new set up was noticably lighter and has been very sweet to cast. Distance has never been a big object in my casting but accuracy is. Wish I could go back and run some distance tests on the two rigs. My gut says it casts just as far if not farther than before. The rod and guide wraps have held up fine. I have some eye-candy wraps up around the handle area and on the split grip. A tiny bit of extra weight there does not bother me at all; as a matter of fact, it very much pleases me! I have built 4 other micros for folks. They like them and have had no problems. I have currently stripped my Walleye Rod [ SCV 6' ML ) and plan to micro it this winter. Any suggestions? Want to finally try some 2.5.

Great information. Thank you Bill.

We all appreciate you going out on a limb with the numbers to help validate the current use of smaller guides.

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Mike C.
Your quote: "if intended for casting I would employ a spiral wrap or conventional guides-on-top."

Could you please provide a few more details - are you replying that you would not consider micros on top?
And if so why?
Or asking if you should consider one over the other?

For those thinking of trying the Micro guides - you already have. The first guide on any baitcasting rod has already been determined for you - both distance and size - it's on the reel. Take a look at these quality Shimano baitcasting reels - Curado, Chronarch, and Castiac - the line guide on the reel is much smaller than a 6. Use your intuition plus guidance form these builders and go for it.

To answer Bill S. - Use whatever number of my locking wraps will fit on the Micro you're using - probably one on the Fuji and two on the Batson's.

There are several concepts at work here that some may may not easily recognize. For a long time, many have said the using smaller guides would be effective as long as the rod would perform in the desired manner. Most can easily see the advantages of smaller guides in weight reduction on the tip end of a rod. This weight reduction can favorably impact the performance characteristics of the rod as it pertains to "in hand" feel.

Rich Forhan's above comment also suggests that other factors may be at work here as well:

Mike Canavan this may provide an interesting read for one of you above statement - casting distance on micros -

Specifically for casting rod information

Steve's Volume 3 Opening Post Item 3.

How does line control fit into all of this? (Casting distance)

Could it be that a rod with all small guides on top may also improve casting distance in some circumstances?

(click on the picture when it opens to take a close look)
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Take a look at the center rod in the Preview Photo - all micros - all on top

Anyone test casting this rod with 50 lb braid loaded on a Revo Premier is completely shocked!

And the reason is easily observably and completely logical.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2008 06:17PM by Bill Stevens.

Steve, sorry for the confusion, in a hurry at work! Thanks for starting this thread also - I'm probably in a boat with many here that regard it as a greatly appreciated, continuous learning experience!

Just a personal setup "quirk" I guess, I'm using micros on just about every build now. For jigging-only purposes though, I've stuck with the simple spiral (bumper) setup, and found that employing micro running guides has nothing but enhanced the rods. (I still use a #6 bridged tip top though.) For horizontal casting, eventhought the bumper/micro setup works fine, I just personally favor other micro setups (either all-micro-guides-on-top, or "micro-revolver"). Like I said, just a personal choice, nothing more.

Many Thanks again to you, Bobby F, Bill, and all others for sharing your hard work and results - from an appreciative and converted M&M here! Mike

I have built two rods using the Fuji 4MM guides for running guides, one spinning and one simple spiral casting rod. The casting rod was 3C68MXF St. Croix that ended up doing everything I wanted it to do except flipping which I do not do much of anyway. The rod pitches great extremely accurate and cast very well. I used Fuji sic guides DF8, SF6 (bumper), SF5 (180) SF 4MM running guides. When I first used the rod I did have a little problem with the Tube Tip Top, American Tackle ceramic fly 5MM. The Batson 4MM where not available yet. Since the 5MM tip Top was so much larger than the 4MM running guides it seemed to be under more than usual stress under fishing conditions since the line angled down to the Tip Top. When the Batson micro tip tops came out I changed the tip top to a Batson 4MM Zirconium top. I noticed a nice improvement in the way the line exited the tip top. (smoother I guess) and possibly a few feet more casting distance. The Batson 4MM tip top did bend down a little but no enough to not still align nicely with the 4MM running guides. I left the tip top slightly bent down where it wanted to be and fished the rod a lot last summer, tip top is still hanging in there. I have been thinking about trying to fill in the little open area under the guide ring of the tip top with a little JB weld. Maybe it would be enough to add just that little bit of extra support it needs without adding to much weight.
The spinning rod was the Rainshadow ISB822.5. I have tried a bunch of different guide sizes and locations. The spinning rod now has a Bvslg 25, YSG12 BLAG5 choke guide with 4MM Alconite running guides. It seems to cast well enough but not any farther than when I had used a smaller butt guide and next guide to the choke guide. I just did not like the way the line felt on the cast as it went through the smaller butt guide. It seems to more easily go through the larger butt guide but with the weight being the down side.
I do not see any down side to the micro guides except for the lack of braced tip tops. I did notice a big improvement when using the tip top that matches the running guide size.
One other down side for me now is to decide between conventional on top all micro guide casting rod or what I already like the simple spiral. I just got a Rainshadow IP843f that I think would be a lure launcher wrapped conventional with micros. Have a great day, Rich.

1. Picked up my first micros at last years Expo from Bob M after checking out Steve G's rods on display at the Batson booth. Soon as I saw them they made sense.

2. First build was a ISB903 spiral with Batson 6mm stripper and 3's to top, normal 6 tip since that was what I had available (Bob had run out of tips Sunday), for myself to flip docks for Redfish. Not much to say, it does what it is supposed to.
A dozen more since (8 spirals, 4 spinning), mostly Rainshadow RX8's. Both Batson and Fuji's guides.

3. Most definitely helps with line control. I mostly use Daiwa Samurai 10lb or 20lb which is a fine as silk, prone to wind knot. The micros pretty much eliminate wind knot for me.

4. I find the stripper should be as small as possible but most importantly the right height. Then a 10 and 3 or 3.5's to the tip. I've settled on a Fuji FST tip for durability and I prefer a slightly larger ring size. Ideally I'd like a nice strong 4 tip.

5. Since I'm on the water more than 250 days per year I really get time to try things out. I've made at least 30,000 casts with a spinner built on a RX8 XSB8222.5. Love it.
Just delivered this RX8 XSB822.5 [www.rodbuilding.org] and a RX8 XMB783 spiral to the Publisher and the Editor of NC's Fisherman's Post weekly periodical. They are fishing a Striper tourney tomorrow and can't wait to break them in. They will be reviewing them in the next issue which I'll post.

6. Using two pieces of surge tubing makes wrapping a piece of cake (as long as I'm wearing my glasses and haven't had too much coffee).

Thanks to all who have shared.

I may have missed it but I have not seen in any of the posts on this subject is the weight of this particular sf guide. I weighed (20) 4 mm Alconites on my H. Freight scale and it bounced back and forth from 1.0 to 1.1 gram.
The leg on those is a little longer than the Batson 3s so there will be a little more thread and finish weight. A question that has come to mind is do we need to define micro in terms of guide size-is it 4 and smaller?
3.5 and smaller?

A couple of spinning rods I built with Alconites......16-10-5sf fly to the tip were described as casting like rockets. Not sure if 5s should be considered "micro". One 6' 6" Med and a 7' MH. Both used with 10-14 lb braid. Had not personally bought into using smaller runners at the time-looking back that was probably a mistake. Had some concerns too about a shocked look on customers face.

Chris

Chris, the nomenclaure and sizing of the micro guides will end up being a crucial link in things that take place between builders on this board. Take a look at this photo link:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Builders should be aware that the products of one manufacturer may be highly unique. Any cross referencing with dimensions is not presently standardized. When detailing micro rods, casting or spinning, it would be helpful that the manufacturers name be associated with the guides being utilized. This would be helpful to those that are planning on ordering components for a specific set up.