In M&M Volume 1 [www.rodbuilding.org] there was a short post that included these words: "PUT'EM ON THE SCALE DEWEY". It’s probable that very few readers understood the meaning but perhaps some of you older bass fisherpersons did.

Ray Scott, the founder of BASS, is a great showman and uses all his skills to his advantage irrespective of who became the blunt of his humor. Hank Parker was one of his favorite targets because Hank was likewise a good showman.

Seems as though Hank was the last to weigh-in at a Bassmaster Classic several years back and he had a very good chance of becoming the winner. Well, Ray decided that he would stall putting Hank’s fish on the scale until he had milked the maximum mileage out of Hank’s anxiety. Hank stood it as long as he could so he exclaimed: "PUT'EM ON THE SCALE DEWEY".

The reason for using that last week in Volume 1 was to point out that the only way we can make good decisions is to make them by using accurate facts. At the time we had very few.

So, what’s that got to do with the “Scales of Justice”?

I’m probably the world’s worst salesman because I tend to just tell people what I think instead of what they need to hear. In spite of this shortcoming I look back over the last 21 months that I have been building micro rods and realize that I’ve done pretty well with my little hobby business. So how did I sell so many rods that are way outside the norm if I can’t sell?

It’s pretty simple. It’s because of their light weight; the rods sell themselves when I put one in a good fisherman’s hand.

I can hand somebody a rod, watch their face, and see some amazed expressions. Sometimes you can even see their hand raise a few inches because their brain was expecting a heavier load. Normally their first words are “Man that’s light”.

When I first realized this, I began to think of ways I could make the rods even lighter. That’s when I decided I needed a scale. Bought myself a $10 digital scale that read to 5/100’s of an ounce and started weighing components.

I started looking at the weight of cork rings and rubberized cork rings, reel seats, epoxy, hook keepers, decals and anything else I put on a rod. I was really amazed at the amount of weight I was adding. Then I started thinking of ways to cut the weight and still make a functional rod that would do what it was intended to do.

The first problem I ran into was in trying to weigh my micro guides since my scale only went to 5/100th of an ounce. Yep, you guessed it, a new $25 scale that reads directly to 1/1000 of an ounce was ordered. That then led me to another discovery that I still use today.

The first micro rods I built were built with transition guides starting with a 5, 4.5, 4 then 3.5”s (remember I’m a conventional ‘guides on top’ builder. No spiral and no spinning). At that point I decided to get out of the box and use all one size for every guide. The only thing I can quantify is a few fractions of a gram of weight savings, but I can assure you that this method works so well that it is what I am selling today with no complaints or issues.

I may not have discovered this without the scale.

I guess the point of all this is that it’s not so much about saving a gram as it is about a total weight reduction from all the things we add to a blank. It’s about the lightest reel seat that will satisfy the rods intended purpose. It’s about tighter fits between cork and blank, thus less epoxy. It’s about less thread which takes less epoxy, and very thin pieces of rubberized cork that we use for butt protection. And yes, it’s about the lightest weight micro guides we can get away with.

At the present, depending on customer preferences, my total average added weight will usually range between 0.8 and 1.1 ounces. Here’s a little secret for those that will beat these numbers. “We add less weight to a large diameter blank than we do to a smaller one”.

Example; (Remember, I’m talking bass casting rod here with a two piece reel seat.) On a blank where the threaded portion of a reel seat fits very snuggly at its final position and we have to ream the trigger portion a little, I have seen this added weight number fall as low as 0.75 ounces.

I of course am like many others who are never satisfied with the status quo, so I wonder what other revelations await us tomorrow as we continue to gather facts from the “Scales of Justice” and push the envelope even further?

BTW for you that have one of the digital scales there is usually two different scales for ounces. There is ounces avoirdupois (Oz) and ounces troy (Ozt), big difference. I’m using ounces avoirdupois (Oz).

Facts from the Scale:

If you recall, M&M Vol 1 asked someone to “get the facts” by accurately weighing some micro guides. Jeffery Friend volunteered to help do this and paid a visit to my shop on Wednesday where we weighed guides for this post. Guide weights were obtained using Jeffery’s triple beam scale and my digital scale which reads to 1/100 of a gram. There was virtually no difference in the readings on either scale.

We weighed 10 pieces of each item so the weights below are the total of 10 pieces.


Model # 10 piece total weight
Fuji LSG3.5 0.41 grams
LSG4.0 0.55 grams
LSG 4.5 0.90 grams
TLSG 3.5 0.36 grams (titanium)
BFAT 4.5(3.9) 1.50 grams (alconite tip)

Batson BMKLG0.35 0.71 grams
BMKLT04R5.0 2.60 grams (brass tip)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2008 10:49AM by Bobby Feazel.

The amount of difference it would make if there was a way to get the weight of the tip itself down would surely be significant. The BFAT tip alone weighs more than 30 of the LSG3.5 guides. The final frontier? Probably not. Going places no rodbuilder has gone before.

Bobby and Jeff-Thanks for the time spent putting this together.

Chris

Chris

I must apologize for the confused weight chart at the bottom of the post. Seems a though my beautiful Word formating flew out the window when I uploaded the post. I will edit and see if I can't make it more readable.

BTW 1.5 grams divided by 0.41 equals 3.66 not 30.

Not your fault, my slide rule needs lubricating also.

Bobby

OOPS! What's an extra zero here or there? That's Treasury Dept math I was using. Thanks for the kind correction. LOL Consider it my entry for Friday Follies.

some more: 10 pieces of each

10 Fuji MKSG 2.5 0.21 g
10 Fuji MKSG 3 0.32 g
10 Fuji BLAG 4 0.5g

Olaf

Chris if that is the largest "bump" in the road encountered as this thread progresses we will have a very productive weekend.

How does this build information assist a custom builder with bass market penetration.

One Example - Bass Frog Rods

The June edition of FLW Outdoor Bass Edition published a rating of six production "Frog Rods'. Many descriptive adjectives, such as sensitivity, balance and power, were included in the presentation but the lone single measure of comparison was the weight of each. If the word "sensitivity" appeared in the text it is noted with an S. The lack of the appearance of the word "sensitivity" in the advertising text is extremely important and demonstrated a high level of compassion for the fisherman.

Fenwick Elite 7' 2" Frog Stick weight 6.24 oz

Setyr 7' 2" Tatcital Series Froggin Rod 4.7 oz S

Falcon Cara T7 7' 10" Perfect Frog Rod 6 oz S

Castaway 7'3" Grass Master Skeleton Braid 4.1 oz

G Loomis 7'3" Frog Rod 6.8 oz

American Rodsmith 7'6" Mag Strike Magnum Casting Rod 5.8 oz

Kistler 7' Magnesium TS Jig and Toad Special - No Wt listed S

St Croix 7' Legend Tournament Bass Slop-N-Frog -- 4.4 oz

Allstar 7'2" ASR Series 866C - 4.7 oz

A MICRO Rod on a blank of choice that only adds 0.75 - 1.0 oz of added weight will get any serious bass fishermans attention very quickly. I have delivered several comparable Frog Rods under 4.0 oz. The first question a bass fisherperson's (see Bobby I can read) will ask is when can I get mine and not how much will it cost!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2008 03:58PM by Bill Stevens.

I haven't used these micro guides to the extent that many others have so what I'm about to say may have some serious shortcomings that I'm not aware of. However, the gist I pick up from a lot of the micro guide users is that the matching tops aren't very good - not up to the task, and thus other, larger tops are having to be employed. I wonder if anyone has wrapped on a micro guide in place of a regular tube type tiptop?

Just curious to know if this might be an interim solution until better suited matching micro tiptops are available.


.....................

Tom great question. Yes they have and with good success.

I think they work exceptionally well on spiral or spinning. If you put them on a conventional rod (guides on top) some people tend to believe that their expensive fluorocarbon line will get abraded by rubbing on the tip of the blank. Therefore, I had to find a better temporary fix, which was to split the Alconite tube.

Tom;
I use the micro tops on lighter stuff (drop-shot, shaky head, Sinko, stick bait, and top water type rods.
But go to a heavier tip for heavier or rougher type set ups. Flipping/pitching, spinner bait, frog, larger crank bait rods and such.

Over the years I have knock many an insert out of 6 and 8mm tips flipping and pitching just because of some times being in a hurry, I’ve reeled the bait right into the tip and eventually knocked them out, also at night when I can’t see the tip as well.
Same with a Carolina rig ware I have repeatedly reel the swivel holding the leader on into the tip, because of not paying close enough attention when reeling in for another cast. It seems the faster the reel ratio the more I have done it. That is why I stay with a larger tip in these situations.

For me even if I the micro tips did not have issues, I would most likely stay with the larger tips in these situations.

As far as the present tips go I’ve only had one failure on a lighter set up and that was for the same reasons stated before.
If I can remove 80% of the weight off the guides of a rod and still have to stay with the tip, I’m OK with that. However it is a shame to have a tip that out weighs all the guides put together

I know also that a few guys have wrapped guides for tips, but will have to let them answer as far as results go.

I also think Bobby is onto something spitting the tubes, along with the conventional wrap,

I don’t think there is as much stress put on the Micro tip when it is wrapped on top with al the line pressure being at the point were the tip is soldered into the tube. (Just stronger at that point)

But on a spiral wrap all the line pressure is at the furthest point from the tube were the most leverage effecting the tip can take place.

I am splitting or windowing the Fuji 4.5 tube for blanks up to a 5.5 tube diameter. Both Alconite and Titanium SIC in 4.5 tube.

If you are careful you can split past the support posts on the Fuji micro top.

After splitting and shaping they are installed and locked into place with Loctite high penetrant and them wrapped completely with A Gudebrod and coated with three coats of Perma Gloss.

For blanks over 5.5 tip diameter I am forced time to use a standard tip tip with 6.0 ring.

Who showed me how to do this - Mr. Feazel!

Bobby, I will take a picture and post it in the morning when the sun comes up. I will include the special pliars and post and try to take a picture of the splitting and Locktite application.

I have only used one of the brass black painted unsupported Batson Tops on a frog rod and have to replace it with a standard ring 5 when the first hook set bent the frame severely. Those tops should be fine on light action rods.

Where are you - all manufacturers - we need something bad bad bad! Micro Tops with larger tubes supported with good rings at the proper elevation - this will be a new item and needs some development! Tough, Strong, Good Ring and designed for the task -



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2008 06:21PM by Bill Stevens.

A very good series of articles were done on TackleTour.com ......"swimbait rod wars". A lot of detail on rod weights, balance points, line class, lure weights, types of guides, length/action, butt grip length and notation as to guide orientation-a couple were spiral wrapped. A very few had reasonable weights-most were very heavy. The rods spiral wrapped with Alconites retailed for over $500 ea. I didn't do any math on these for the sake of accuracy.

[www.tackletour.com]

Chris

Tom makes a very good point. The tip is absolutely the last place that you want any extra weight. Weight at the tip of a rod will have 10 times the affect on rod performance that the same amount of weight will have when it is added a foot back from the tip.

Tom, I have been wrapping size 3 batsons for the tip of all of my micro rods this past year... I have had no problems with them holding up to the task...THis includes being on flipping and frog rods. I personally don't like the look as much and am going to try splitting a few size 4 unsupported tops. I spiral wrap all of my rods so I am going to see if they hold up on frog rods/ flip rods.....I agree with the others though....the Manufacturers need to step up and make a good top in these sizes.

And Emory....while I agree with you that the weight added to the tip section has more effect than the guides further back....even using a size 6 alconite for the tip we are still reducing the overall weight of the rod by using micro's for the rest.....once again, your argument against micro's doesnt add up in the real world.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

Emory - honest question - how do you come up with 10x? Just wondering if you could use a calculation to compensate for a certain tip by changing guides further down. Just thinking here.

Bobby - are those added weights with or without rod finish? With or without your label?

Another one for the scales: bobby's ink jet labels vs. waterslides...

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2008 08:28PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

Emory;
I totally agree with you about the tip being the last place I want to add weight.

But what is happening in this case, is not that I am “adding weight”

I’m just not able to remove as much as weight as I would like to by using smaller tips.

I can and do use them on lighter application rods, I’m just not comfortable with them on heavier set ups

I am wondering after looking at Steve Cox's pictures of the Batson guides if the severe forward angle of these guides has any effect. I would think by them being bent at aprox 45 degrees that the effective ring size is even less then the 3 mm. They seem to be heavier then the Fuji SIC guides and when I compare them to the picture that Billy V sent in it looks like the Fuji guides are at an angle closer to 90.

Are the Fuji guides more durable? Are they more effective due to the angle?

Anyone ever compare the two types of Micros? What are your thoughts on both.

Rolly Beenen
Rovic Custom Rods

Emory please take the time to look at the picture:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Note the three guides lying side by side on the towell on the right side - zoom in on it - the little one on the right is a Fuji micro top the next one is the brass Batson Micro and the one on the left is a standard Alconite with a 6 ring.

10 Fuji BFAT 4.5(3.9) = 1.50grams (alconite tip) 1 on a rod weighs 0.15 gr

10 Fuji BFAT 6.0 (6mm) = 4.5 grms (Alconite tip) personal weight not validated by others. 1 on a rod weight 0.45 gr.

Once again we are all saying exactly the same thing and somehow are not connecting with the message to all.

We want to use the absolute smallers weight possible and are doing every thing we can to pressure manufacturers to drop the weight of tip tops. This is not an argument about what is better - lighter is better if it will do the job.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2008 06:21AM by Bill Stevens.

Alex

The weights are a completely finished rod. Nothing else to add.

Rolly;
I have built both and compared both, you are very observant. The Batson’s are actually at about 60%.
With Fuji’s being closer to 90%.
I guess there could be a different in performance, if the line was close to the same size as the ring. But in three years of use I’ve not been able to tell a performance difference in relation to casting.

I find the Batson’s to be quite a bit stronger then the Fuji’s and prefer the Batson’s for that reason. In my opinion the Fuji’s bend to easily.

That being said; I know there are a few very skilled builders using the Fuji’s and don’t seem to mind the difference in strength, and to my knowledge are not having any problems with them.
Some of which are using them on flipping/pitching rods with braided lines up to 85 lb test.

There are also a few other design differences, which because of personal choice have me use one brand while another may prefer the other.