Hi Everyone,

I'm building my first surf rod for a customer. It is a gift for his son for his high school graduation. The blank is a Forecast SU1387F, 11'6", rated for 20-40lb. line and 2-6oz.'s of weight. The guides I'm using are the American Tackle high frame GCBV's. I set up the guides using my best interpretation of the new guide concept, which gave me a set up like this: 50, 30, 20, 12, 12, 10, 10, 10, 10TT. The guides were placed on the blank using surgical tubing. The reel for this rod is a spinning reel and is quite large. It's a Penn 850 and the front of the spool is almost 3" in diameter. The amount of weight being cast was about 4 ounces. The problem I'm having is this: everytime I do a test cast with this setup, the mono is slapping the blank in between the reel spool face and the stripper guide. It is not just a slight slap either, it sounds like baseball cards in spokes and has got to be really shortening the cast. The original stripper guide location was at approximately 29". I have tried moving the 50 stripper guide as close as 23" and as far away as 42". I have also tried switching the 50 guide out for the 30 guide in the same locations with the exact same result. We also switched the reel to a 12 foot store bought AR rod and got the same line slap. What is going on here ??

Do I need to move the stripper guide closer ?

Do I need to get an even taller guide to keep the line off the blank ?

Any help anyone can offer would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

What pound test mono are you using? It may have too much memory. Try spooling with braid and see if you have the same problem.

I'm using 30lb. Big Game mono and an 80lb. shock leader using a uni to uni knot. I've tried it with and without the shock leader with the same result.

I think I'd try a softer, lower diameter mono first. Big Game is a stiff high diameter mono that tests considerably higher than it's rated strength on my tests. Works a lot better on casting reels than spinning.

When looking at lines and lb tests, look more into the DIAMETER of the line, vs the lb tests from each brand. The diameter tells the story of the "real" lb test of the line. MOST ALL 30lb lines are 40-45lb line in a 30lb box! Most all nylons (mono's) are done this way, Only a few are not. Also the IGFA rated lines are MUCH better and break closer to the suggested lb tests.

DR

Jeff-

It may be that your stripping guide is too big and/ or too low and therefore is not controlling the line as it comes off the reel. In my experience, the new concept guide set up (bringing the line down under control quickly) is as applicable to these surf rods as it is to ultralights. Unless you are using a bigger spinning reel than I have ever seen, a size 50 won't do anything to help control your line - especially if the bottom of the ring sits pretty close to the rod (low framed guide). I have found that using a higher framed guide with a smaller ring may do the trick.

You don't need to over do it - size 6 guides are too small - but you probably don't need 50 -30- 20 either. Size 16 running guides will pass an 80 lb. shock fine. It is impossible to tell you what specific sizes and spacing to use, but on a Daiwa 5500 / 6000 size reel I would typically use a first guide with a ring size roughly half the diameter of the spool. A set up like 25-16-12s on out or 30-20-12s on out often works very well if you get the heights right. A higher framed guide like a SVSG will do better than an NSG for your first few guides. So, I might go SVSG25 - SVSG16 - SVSG12 and then NSG12s out to the tip top.

Critics of non-traditional, smaller guides will say that choking the line this way will rob you of casting distance. In my personal experience, that is simply not the case. On my rods that line slap robs a lot more distance than controlling it down so it can flow out the guides. And I have the measurements to prove it. The points above about line diameter are spot on in my opinion. The difference between 20 lb and 30 lb are neglible on my big casting reels. It makes a HUGE difference on the spinning reels.

I have found the Breakaway USA distance line and the Suffix Siege work really well on the surf spinning rods. But that's must my opinion...I could be wrong. Good luck!

Bill





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2007 12:53PM by Bill Falconer.

Bill Falconer is right -- the size of the stripping guide is overblown on surf spinning rods. The old saying is that the first guide needs to be about the same size as the spool is, in my opinion, total and absolute bunk. I'd switch the butt guide to a size 30 or even 25, without changing anything else, and see if you get less blank slapping.

There are two other things I'd like to point out. The first is that the line and shock leader you're using are very heavy duty, especially for weights only up to 6 oz. I routinely toss up to 8 oz. with 20 lb. test and no shock leader (I do it at night, when casting distance isn't terribly important, and only when no one else is around, but you get my point), and unless you're fishing around rocks or are targeting especially toothy and/or scaly fish, I can't see why you need something as heavy as a 30/80 combo. Going to a lighter line and/or shock leader may solve or at least minimize a lot of your problem.

But there's also one other thing you may want to try. I built myself a Jersey clam-chucking rig a year or two ago, and I mated it with an Alvey (Aussie side-cast) reel. Because the reel is so big (6 1/2 inch diameter), line slapping against the blank was a big concern of mine, and I paid close attention to it while I worked on my guide configuration and did my test casting. I ended up with a rig that worked great for me.

Because the reel holds something like 900 yards of 20 lb. mono, I buy line in bulk when it's on sale, and this winter I got two big (3000 yard) spools of 20 lb. Penn Professional Line for something like $30 apiece, which is less than half the usual price. This winter, I tuned up the reel and respooled it, and was eagerly waiting for the day when I could start my 2007 season.

That day was this past Sunday, and I went to the surf with the eagerness of a religious pilgrim. And guess what? On my first cast, despite all the effort I'd put into eliminating line slap, the line was smacking the blank so much I thought the finish might come off.

I don't remember the brand I used when I build the rod, but evidently the stuff I got this winter is either much thicker, or it has much more memory (or it could possibly be both), and now I'm going to have to find a limper brand, and strip my reel and respool.

I'm sorry I've taken too long with this, but my point is that respooling the reel with a different brand, and a different thickness mono, could solve a lot of your problems. Good luck.

Thanks everyone for the great input. The reason I was using that combination of line and shock leader is because I wanted to re-create a worst case scenario, so no matter what the kid decided to use, I knew it would work. Another reason is that when we chunk a piece of whiting on a cirlcle hook into the ocean here in Texas, you have just as much chance catching a redfish as you do catching a 5 to 6 foot blacktip... you just never know. So I wanted the rig to work with whatever he decided to throw on it. But also, as I said before, we even did some testing with absolutely no shock leader at all and just tied the weight directly to the 30lb. mono and got the major slap.

I guess first thing to do would be to drop the 50 guide. Next, replace the Big Game with something a little thinner and limper. Then start casting and bringing the 30 in closer and closer until I hit the sweet spot of no slap.

i built a 8ft surf rod last year for the same rod...I had a 50 as the stripper guide and had the same problem, I ended up using a 70 with no problems...I think the stripper guide is about 25 -28 inches from the reel so that might solve your problem.

OK everyone, I have the solution. First off let me just say thank you to you all for the suggestions and comments, it is very much appreciated. Secondly, let me preface this note by saying that this is the first spinning rod I have ever built or used, so the mechanics of these reels was completely new to me. So, with that said, here goes:

FILL THE DARN SPOOL TO THE TOP BEFORE DOING YOUR TESTS.... turns out that this reel is made to handle 225-250 yards of 25 lb. line and I had only put about 50-60 yards on the spool, since it was just for test purposes, right ??. Then a friend of mine sent me a couple of pictures of his Cobia rigs and they all had spinning reels on them. I was looking at the pics and noticed that on every one of them the line went all the way to the top of the spool. Then I began to think back to High School physics class and the light bulb came on. I was forcing the mono to push out over an inch wide lip all the way around the spool, forcing the line off the reel at a 90 degree angle... OF COURSE it's going to hit the blank !!! So, I filled the spool to the top, and now everything is right as rain. Guide #1 is at approximately 39" and it's only a 30 size.

Also, got another good tidbit from Bill Falconer: if you are building a rod using a baitcaster style reel (sit on top), you want to make sure that when you are doing your static deflection testing that you try the spool full and also try the spool empty (or very close to it). That way you are essentially re-creating a worst case scenario.... GETTING SPOOLED !! The height of the line coming off of a big 6/0 or 12/0 is VERY different on a full spool vs. an empty spool. So, what seemed like a perfect set-up on a full spool could actually rub the blank when getting spooled. So, test it both ways and it will not give you or your customer any surprises when fighting an actual fish. Thanks Bill.