On most, if not all, sprial wraps I've done the line generally doesn't want to touch the ring of the first 180 guide. Normally under a load it will touch the second 180 yet not the first. So far this hasn't been a problem, but I have customers who pull on these blanks mention it to me. My normal response is what I just said, "this hasn't been a problem for me".

Are their concerns valid? Should I be giving them a different answer to the questions they ask about it? I quickly looked in the photo section and immediately found some pictures that show the same thing I'm talking about...rod flexed and the line traveling through the center of the first 180 and hitting the ring of the second 180.

[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]



Jay

When the rod is loaded, it will touch. If it bothers you, use a smaller or lower framed guide for the first 180 degree guide and larger or higher ones from there out.

............

Jay - I looked at both of your reference photographs, and I think I see what you mean.

On any SPIRAL Wrap, regarding the 180-degree Running Guides, if the line is NOT touching the Guide Ring ANYWHERE down near the 12 o'clock position within the Ring WHILE UNDER LOAD, then that Guide is NOT participating in the distribution of the Load along that section of the Rod Blank. It is as if that Guide it is not even there during that amount of rod flex (deflection).

If there is one potential flaw to any Spiral Wrap system, then the potential for this lack of contact / lack of loading is it. When a Guide is not distributing the Load, then the new effective Guide Spacing Interval is the distance between the Guides forward & aft of the non-participant Guide.

It seems that the fewer the number of Guides in the Spiral, then the more likely the rod-builder is to encounter this peculiar problem. And since the Bumper Wrap in one sense uses no guides to transition the line from top to bottom, the Bumper Wrap is more likely to introduce this no-contact / no-load difficulty than other Spiral Wrap systems. As TK suggested, altering the Guide Ring Size or Profile can help, as would re-locating the Guide slightly.

If I understand an old Post & Replies on this subject of No-Contact / No-Load in a Spiral Wrap system, Billy Vivona popped a SW blank because of it while spring-testing the drag load. Visit [www.rodbuilding.org] for further discussion of this Case Study, and see how closely it relates to your concerns.

Good Luck, Jay. ... -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

Spiral Wrap Breakage ... Billy Vivona
Oct. 16, 2005 08:13PM ... 37 Replies
[www.rodbuilding.org]
I have a 50-80# rod break the first time I ran line through it & set the drag. The blank was just fine all teh times I pulled the tip down, almost to teh floor while it was being flexed hard. I couldn’t figure out what could have happened, so I spent a few hours in my Laboratory with other similar blanks to see what could've caused the problem.

What I found, was on Parabolic blanks, which bend down to teh stripper guide, teh line tends to come off of the first guide on teh bottom of teh rod, with almost any set up I tried. I spent 3 hours trying different sizes & placement, and almost all did the same thing.

On my particular rod which broke, I had the guides spaced appx 8" from each other, so when the line came off the first 180 guide, there was 16" between guides where the line touched, causing the rod to break, almost dead center of these 2 points ,,, ETC, ... - BILLY VIVONA.

It's not a matter of bothering me but more of a potential situation such as Billy described above. In the pictures I linked to, both those rods appear to be fairly well loaded and yet the line still doesn't touch the guide ring of the first 180.

It bothers me selling a rod that I know has a better than average chance of popping...if this is the case.

Thanks,
Jay

Jay,

Did you ever get those photo's I forwarded you of the "Acid Hybrid" (Roller Stripper/Top w/ring guides) that my Kid did a few months back? I bet he had 4-5 hours in that guide layout trying keep the line in the bottom of the roller while still making contact in the rings like it's supposed to. In the end, the bumper ended up being placed in almost the standard guide layout, rather than being a simple addition 1/2 way between the stripper & the first 180 guide. In fact it had to be placed closer to the stripper to get contact on the first 180 when loaded. The stripper & bumper had to come back towards the reel a couple of inches to get the transition done in the shut-off area of the blank. I can send it to you again if you didn't get it.

Something else on the “drawing board” is trying this set-up with a standard AA or HD51 Stripper at 0 degrees, feeding a small ring ALSO at 0 degrees, THEN rolling over into a bumper. It’s going to have to be on a 6 –6’6” fast action blank to get the line under the blank in the shut-off area. Bill Stevens told me he had played around with the same type of set-up.


Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Jay you ruined my holiday weekend! I thought I understood the relationship of guide location to blank loading. After looking at the pictures you referenced, checking my spirals and reading the comments of others - now I wonder!

If you take any blank and could somehow load the blank to ninety degrees deflection with no guides an arc is formed. This arc is defined by the characteristics of blank.

Guides are placed on rods for the purposes of line management. Is this location also critical to blank loading? If you placed four guides 1/2 inch apart in the middle of a blank would it change the arc profile of that blank?

I personally do not THINK that the line in the center that you note can cause an increase in sectional load on the blank. It may be that the first 180 on a spiral is not required but I think it would get more questions from your customers if there was a long distance between guides.

If this does cause a problem from load distribution we all have a lot of work in front of us!

I sincerely hope that Emory does not drive me back to square one on where guides are placed.

Mark: My HD 51 is at O I am going straight to the first transitional ring guide of a O'Quinn set up not a 0. I am hoping the line stays put! It is fine for small diameter braid. For a rack sale rod the first guide offset is just too much for walkups to deal with. You have a chance to talk through the spiral wrap but the first one being crooked turns them off.

Our initial try at this had the line climbing up the side of the roller under load on the @#$%&. It actually ended up at 36-37 (?) degrees to keep the line in the roller. That’s why I’m thinking of feeding a ring at 0 degrees with a standard roller stripper. The frame’s going to come into play where it doesn’t on the @#$%&.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Mark, I seem to remember some pictures but can't find them.

I have done the HD51 at 0, low frame bumper, and @#$%& 180 setup. Had a little trouble getting the line to get down on the roller of the first 180...seemed to want to stay on the frame/roller shoulder. Tweeked it a bit, but I still want to test this some more.

Thanks for the responses. I think we are all learning alot.

Jay

My limited experience with this subject of a non-loading 180-degree Guide in the 1st Position has shown that it is an inevitable possibility that is simply a part of the inherent "package-deal" nature of a particular Spiral System. That is, once the rod-builder decides that he will use a certain number of Transition Guides and a certain progression of Spacing Intervals, then the possibility of introducing a Non-Loading Line Guide goes up as a function of some unknown or at least not-so-obvious variables that "we" are collectively starting to discover as we encounter them. The fewer the number of Transition Guides, the more likely this is, making the Bumper Wrap most vulnerable to this probability. Rod Blank Power & Taper-Action would be other variables that effect the Loading Distribution. Guide Ring Size, Height Profile & Location would be some others, too. …

From some quick rod modeling yesterday, an ASYMMETRICAL placement of the 90-degree Bumper Guide (much) closer to the 000-degree Butt Guide than to the 1st 180-degree Guide seems to allow the Line to pull down at 12 o’clock position on the 1st 180-degree Guide. … I was looking at ~ 4 inches between the first 3 Guides (000, 090, 180-#1), then ~ 6 inches to 180-#2. … Now it looks like Mark’s Layout eliminates one guide (compared to mine) and still Loads the 180-#2 correctly. … IMO, it is more important to get the Line to LOAD the RINGS PROPERLY than to have a “straight line path” Transition when viewed from the side of the rod. –Cliff Hall.

[www.kzreelrods.com]

I found this. Looks like a much better transition to the first 180.

Jay

Jay - looking at the third guide in kz link.

Does the line touching the inside of the guide frame have anything to do with blank loading?

If so then the force vector at that point would have a very small rotational value.

I would think that particular guide also had the line through the center at some point during the load up.

Although shifting the guides around on the blank will improve line management will the position of guides change the arc of the blank under the same tip load?