Hello All-

Sorry to drain this topic so thoroughly but I have another question regarding sealing cork prior to flocking. In the RM article (same article posted in the library) it mentions that you can use acrylic CP to seal grips prior to flocking.

My question is this: is Gudebrod 811 an acrylic CP? Has anyone used it to seal grips prior to flocking?

I just want to be sure so that I can isolate the variables. The devil seems to be in the details with this stuff. Thanks!

Bill

Hi Bill
Long time no see. Gudebrod is actually a Urethane/Acrylic. Flexcoat, U-40 and most of the rest of them are Acrylic. However the gudebrod urethane/acrylic is a tougher product and just as good a barrier for the threads as the pure acrylics. I have been using the pure acrylics for this purpose and they work just fine, probably better than cork seal which is a pure urethane intended for abrasion resistance and not necessarily for impermeability. Also my recent work has been aimed at eliminating this sealing process. I don't know how or why we were presented with the necessity of sealing the cork prior to application of the adhesive. Upon studying the situation I really can't see any reason to do anything to the cork other than a good sanding, and repairing of any obvious weak spots due to the crappy fillers involved. The Donjer adhesive is far to viscous to do much penetration into the cork, and the cork is just as good a bond base as any sealer which may be applied. I really don't know why were sealing, except we were told to do so, and like sheep to the slaughter we follow what the masters command. I have some more stuff to look at, but for now I recommend you try a handle or two without sealing it. The cured adhesive really encapsulates and seals the cork handle as well as trapping the flock.

Bill I sure hope to see you in Charlotte. Its time you and I and Andy had a reunion.

Best Regards
Ralph

If you do not seal the the cork prior to applying the adhesive, you may find that your adhesive does soak in just enough so that the layer left to the hold the flock is not sufficiently thick to gain a good purchase on the flocking fibers. It'll still work, but you may not have the long term durability you desire.

I told Bill Stevens that if no sealing is to be done, then you probably want to just use the adhesive in a two application process. One to saturate the cork and then another shortly thereafter to ensure that you have sufficient thickness for the flock fibers to be well imbedded. I have done some this way and it seems to work fine. You do use more adhesive, but none of this stuff is terribly expensive.

The only caveat I can see is that some people may just apply the adhesive overly thick - you do want a nice thick coating but not so thick that you have problem with runs or sags in the adhesive. Flocking won't cover these type things, they'll show as non-uniform areas in the final product.

...................

Tom,
How about a coating of adhesive, let it dry and then put on a coat and flock. Would that do a better job??

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Bill can't hang with us anymore Ralph. He is not one of the "Elite Legends" that are in the finish and adhesive business like us.....


Andy Dear
Lamar Mfg.

This subject is one that will be dealt with in Charlotte very completely. The comments above are all directed at a particular method or product. The products are sealers and the Donjer adhesive.

There is one more very important variable. All cork is not the same. You have to consider and be aware of any limitations that your cork may impose on the process. There will be no fixed rule that demands one particular methodology. The amount and type of filler plays a role in the method of sealing or applying the adhesive. The carrier base for the adhesive may tend to solubilize some of the filler in the pores of the cork which creates a problem. The purpose of the Workshop in Charlotte will be to present, evaluate and demonstrate various options available that will yield the results needed. There will be examples of all of the things listed in this thread.

This subject is far to complex to deal with using the format of this board. Firing off short posts, like this one, may develop questions instead of helping solve a problem. The Charlotte Workshop's task will be to summarize the matters listed above in a written text which can be presented in a format that will be beneficial to all. We intend to present examples of all phases of the processes, demonstrate all application techniques, allow attendees to visually see the results of tests, allow attendee coment, compile all information and submit to Rodmaker for distribution to the rodbuilding community as a whole, if needed.

The fact is - If Donjer adhesive is applied to a substrate which is continuous and firm and flocked with nylon fiber properly it will yield a gip like you have never seen before. Our task is to get this result with all the variables that we as builders may impose.

Ralph, Tom and Jill with Donjer have worked tirelessly to help in getting prepared for a Workshop that will be beneficial to all. Flocking is realatively new and we are all in a learning curve. The development of this market will give all custom builders a valuable tool.

Bill Stevens

Mike,

That would work fine. The point of using a sealer ( I have used the straight acrylic CP because it's cheap and I have plenty on hand) is simply to seal a porous surface that might otherwise soak up enough of the adhesive so that the film left on top isn't enough to gain sufficient purchase on the flocking fibers. I have had a few builders who did not seal their cork and their flocking fibers could be pulled out. The adhesive stayed put, but the fibers themselves would come out of the adhesive.

A very thick application of the adhesive is advised, but you can only go so thick before, just like our epoxy finishes, it starts to sag and droop and run. You don't want that. So, if you want to use the adhesive exclusively, I would recommend putting a coat on and letting it stand until it's set and then adding another just prior to flocking. In the end, you have the same net result - a layer of adhesive on top of the cork that is thick enough to gain good purchase on the flocking fibers.


Bill,

I'm not sure it's all as complicated as that (maybe it is - I just haven't run into too many of these problems, yet). On cork, sanding is usually going to be sufficient to prepare the surface for whatever comes next. I'm sure everyone will be excited to learn more at your seminars, which will be presented both days. No doubt there are some special cases that need to be considered.

...........

I was one of the people who had some trouble when using the Donjer adhesive on naked cork. Everything worked and looked good but the flock would pull out without much work. I went back to sealing the cork with Flex Coat color preserver and now you couldn't pull the flock out with a pair of pliers.

Something I think might help though, is to make sure your adhesive is very cool when you apply it. Being thicker, I'm thinking it won't soak in as easily and will go on in a much thicker coat yet one that won't run or sag as much. I plan to practice this idea on a few grips I've got lying around and will report back with my results.

Bill
Maybe thats why I'm having good luck with just one coat. No problem with the fibers pulling out and I've tried both the short fibers and the long ones. My application area is in my rod shop, and its usually about 65deg. F when I flock, sometimes as high as 68F , The adhesive always seems thick to me and I have never seen it as thin as some people describe. I put it on heavy --- heavy enough so that it would sag if I let it stand. I've tried several handles for experiment, cross sectioned them and the fibers seem to be imbedded as good as they would be if I had sealed the cork prior to applying the adhesive. I cannot see any excessive penetration of the adhesive into the cork. I believe that what people think to be penetration leaving a thin surface of adhesive is nothing more than normal shrinkage of the adhesive due to solvent evaporation. I remain an advocate of no sealing and one coat application --- for this adhesive system. I also am advocate of finding a more satisfactory adhesive for rodbuilders, and am spending considerable time on that project.

Ralph

Hello All-

Ralphie, it is great to hear from you. Andy...maybe not so much. In all seriousnes, it seems like a long time since we were playing with finish and turning wood inserts in my basement, eh? I miss you guys. If only I'd known how famous you guys were going to become I would have videotaped it or something. I could have released it via the internet like the Paris Hilton sex tape or something. Exclusive Elite Legends of Finish basement fight club cage match footage...

I am trying some grips using a sealing coat of Donjer adhesive and nothing else. I can tell you that the first coat seems to have set up much harder already than the coat I put over the Cork Seal sealed grips, but it's going to be the weekend before I can recoat and apply the flock. So we'll see how it turns out. It appears you don't really need to fill the cork that much using this method because that first coat of adhesive sort of filled it up.

I'm probably going to try the Gudebrod 811 as a seal as well just because I am curious. I'd just as soon get all the experimentation out of the way now and maybe somebody else can benefit from it as well. I'll tell you this...these things feel so good that it is worth the trouble to figure this all out.

Many thanks to all of you for your expertise and suggestions. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Bill

More satisfactory adhesive for rod builders? Ralph, are you talking like Rod Bond, or just about 'flocking' adhesives???? Can't imagine much better than Rod Bond...

Putter
Williston, ND

A thick, foamy spray on adhesive would make application of the adhesive easier. I have no idea if it's possible, but I trust Ralph will come up with something.

One thing worth mentioning - in the world of "flockers," and mostly among those involved in other crafts, many people have come to the poor conclusion that the adhesive Donjer is selling is nothing more than just enamel paint. Many are trying to save a few bucks by buying half pint cans of enamel paint at their local home improvement store and flocking on top of that. No doubt they meet with some limited success, but not nearly the success they'd have if they bought the real McCoy. The Donjer flocking adhesive is most definitely not an enamel paint.

............

That's actually pretty interesting. I would try anything new that Ralph came up with. Anything that would make some of the more precise application of the adhesive and help give you cleaner lines while doing detail work would be really helpful to me with flocking seats, etc.

I have to confess that I am as interested in flocking for other outdoor applications as I am for rodbuilding. The possibilities seem endless to me. I'm refinishing a push pole for a guy for his flats boat. How nice would some flocking be for his hands and to deaden sound?

I duck hunt in some very inclement weather each year. Your gun basically has to have a synthetic stock to hold up to the abuse it takes in and out of a boat and a blind. We often wade a mile or more through flooded timber and it's all you've got to break ice (unloaded, of course). The problem with the synthetics is that they are very hard and very slick when they get wet at temperatures below freezing. The newer ones that are rubberized in texture feel better on bare hands but seem to freeze easier / at lower temperature and can be really mud-slick with wet gloves on. How nice would a flocked synthetic stock and pistol grip feel on that shotgun?

I mean...gaff handles...flounder spears / frog gigs...net handles...they are all candidates in my book. I know I probably sound like I've inhaled too much adhesive or am smoking flock or something but once you feel this stuff you will get it. I promise I'll post pictures of any of this stuff I do. Either that or start a support group.

I have already got a leg up on all of you! My quarterly appoint with the "shrink" was yesterday at 2:30 pm. After the counseling session he upped the dosage and added three more pills and asked me if I had anything the would remove that funny looking fuzz stuck to his couch!

Gon Fishn

Same pills you gave me last year, Bill?

Putter
Williston, ND

Nope - No Pills in a Prescription Bottle for you this year! I will have one loaded with a Special Treat that you will end up chasing me all over the room to get your hands on! The ultimate marbleing tool for De Man! It is not a trinket to waste your money on and it will not be free! Be prepared to open, look, sniff, feel and test only one! The price for more will be determined by your curosity as to where in the devil did he find those! You will not ever ever locate the source so you better be prepared to shell out.

Gon Fishn