If so, what guide set up do you use on your casting rods? Do you use the "new concept" theory?

I know some and they all use casting reels instead of spinning so the new guide concept isn't going to make nearly as much difference. It's on the spinning reels and rods where the difference is so much more apparent. I know I'll never go back after trying it. The whole rod feels lighter and more responsive and there is some gain in casting distance. I've even gone back and torn down some of my older rods and rewrapped with the system. Much, much better all the way around.

Mike, not a tournament caster and rarely use fixed spool. To get a good idea of how distance casting rods are guided for both fixed and revolving spool go to conoflex.co.uk Believe it or not Conoflex publishes the guide size and diameter for their rods right at their site,no digging around for some hidden page. Being Brits their language is a bit different and measurements are metric but it's right there. I believe that Conoflex is now producing their spinners with the new Fuji Low Rider guides(rings in UK speak) but not sure if their site reflects those measurements. You can e mail them and get the answer; they are quite responsive and timely most of the time.Hope this helps.Warren

Mike, having built many rods for Ron Arra, I can tell you what the spacing and size is on his personal demonstration rods.

The following spacing is from the tip of the 11' 1 - 5 oz. conventional rod he uses.

5 3/4", 13 1/8", 23", 35 5/8", 51 1/2", 71 1/2"

The guide's used are fuji sic's, and the alconite guides do make a difference over standard Hardloy.

1 #30mm, 1 #25mm, 1 #20mm, 2 #16mm, 1 #12mm

With a PST 12 ring sic top.

Todd

Assumption is that a tournament caster would use the guide set up that provides him with the most distance!

If the new concept guide system is so great, why would the tournament casters not be using it on casting rods? Why not put 10 or 15 little bitty guides on an 11' rod and let it fly?

Guess I need to build a new concept surf rod and figger it out for my self.

I think a better question is why so many top notch rod builders have adopted the New Guide Concept and like it so much compared to the older style. I think it unwise to assume that all these guys are just falling for some hype.

Remember that the rods which so many use for tournament distance casting really stink as far as fishing goes. They do not have to be concerned with stress distribution for the blank over the long haul nor do they have to be concerned with bringing in any fish.

The set-up that provides the most distance is probably not the one that gives the best all-around performance. Longer casts could most likely be gotten with just 4 or 5 guides on an 11' rod. Of course, if you follow the chapter on stress between guides in Don Phillips book or read any of the Q&A in RodMaker you will learn that such a rod is much more likely to break under a heavy load as well. Since going to the New Guide Concept I have certainly seen the light and will never go back to the dark ages of guide set-up. My rods are now lighter, cast better, fish better, fatigue the fisherman less, etc., etc. And that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of my customers!

I don't know if the new guide concept makes for a better long distance tournament casting rod, but it sure as heck makes for a better fishing rod. I have a stock rod I have been building for the past 5 years on a Loomis MB783. It makes a great light saltwater spinning searching rod and I have always used a set-up like 30, 25, 20, 16, 12, 10 and tip and spaced them according to a careful static stress distribution test. They have always worked beautifully for both me and my customers. Earlier this year I set one up exactly according to the article in the July-August 2000 issue of RodMaker Magazine. Now those rods I built previously make me sick! What a bunch of dogs! The new guide concept has created a rod that is so much lighter it is hard to believe. The rod is balanced so much better and both casts and fishes better. You can hold one of each in your hands and it is no contest just in feel alone.

Now the spacing and sizing depends totally on what specific reel you will be using but I ended up with something like this - high frame 25, 16, 10, and then low frame fly type #7 single foots on out. Used 4 of them. It is a beautiful set-up that has knocked my socks off. Count me as another satisfied believer. I just wish I had the time and resources to go back and call in the 50 or so other rods I had set up the old way before I knew better.

I have never seen the new concept system mentioned for tournament casting. I have participated in a couple of distance competitions and the rods and reels we use are not suitable for actual fishing. I believe the concept system is for actual fishing use.

Right you are. It's for fishing. Also the comment about "little bitty" guides is off the mark. The article constantly states that you want to reduce the guide size quickly, down to whatever the smallest size guides that will still do the required job might be. That's not an actual quote, but I think it is pretty close. The might be little bitty and they might not be.

So on a heavy power surf rod used with a casting reel the little bittiest guide you might use could be a #16. The casting rods are different. Instead of the usual 30 - 25 - 20 -20 - 16 - 16 - tip, you might use a 30 - 20 - 16 -16 -16 -16 -16 and tip and that would be the New Guide Concept as it applies in that instance. And it would probably be a bit lighter feeling and would cast just as well or better than before. What's not to like?

Mike I hope when you say casting, you mean surf casting (Big Spinners), not multipler casting...

There is really no big new concept in the Spin Surf world, but a new set of guides call Low riders. I actually helped the person
with which the first conoflex rod was ever built with the low rider concept guides in England. The spacing I recommended on
that specific rod are as follows. The rod is for Sergio, who is a world record Rooster fish chaser, and he wrote a column in
sporting news.

All measurement in cm from tip on a Conoflex 12 ft Gambit.

14.8
30.8
49.6
72.6
101.4
137.4
182.2

> tip 3.2 x MNST8H mm
> 2 x LCSG6
> 1 x LCSG8
> 1 x LCSG10
> 1 x LCSG12
> 1 x LCSG16
> 1 x LCSG20

This is suppose to use with Emblem 5500ZA. I believe he is using 50lb braid line with 100lb braid shock leader like myself.

Using anything bigger than 8 for tip top and first two guides is EXCESSIVE.

If the surf taper is like the japanese heavy load soft taper you need only 7 guides and the first one can be a 16 instead of a 20...
Try it, you will be amazed, I did and still do...

Good fishing (catching) <*)))))))><{

William,

Thank you for your overview of the Concept System. I always worry when I write these things that I may not be explaining things as simply as I could and that some will not understand. It appears you got it right all the way around.

The Concept does not call for "little bitty" guides. It calls for the smallest/lightest guides that will perform the required task. In some cases that might be #6's. In others, it might well be #16's.

Anyone who gives the Concept a fair try and implements it properly will see a great difference in feel, weight and overall performance. The important thing is to understand what the Concept seeks to achieve and not just use somebody's generic spacing and sizing chart, even if it is said to be the the New Guide Concept. These charts and placements are only suggestions and I have yet to try one that provided the same results as you will achieve by properly implementing the System from a sound understanding of it.

..................

Very good explanation William!

Dorge, what Seeker blank can be compared to the Conoflex you are speaking of? Also, what weight lures/bait is the guy throwing? I've got a CSU120 Seeker sitting around that I had planned on building a surf rod on.

Even though I'm an old dog, you guys have talked me into trying some new tricks. I've got 25 or 30 blanks laying around with nothing planned for them.

Next week, I'll design 10 or so rods using the new concept system and a couple dreaded spiral wrap rods. Before I start them I will post the specs along with the reels to be used and let you folks critique the set ups.

I've got two king mackeral pier fishing weeks fishing planned for Virgina Beach and Cherry Grove in September. I'll try to get 4 or 5 of the rods done and I will let the folks on the pier (some damn good fisherman if I say so) use them and give an opinion. I'll also take the 'old dog's' rods for them to compare to.

Tom and William you are both off with the idea that one can use any guide over 20 for the Low Rider surf. The entire idea is that
one NEVER use any guide that is bigger than a 20 and tip top bigger than 10. This is why this guide set only are made as big as
20 and the tip top largest you get is 10. That said, I think it will be much better if you can locate some technical literature and
have a read up on how and why it is design like that. The following URL shall get you started. Not to mention there is some
true specification on how and why the guides are like that.

Introduction
[www.fujitackle.com]
Low Rider Concept
[www.fujitackle.com]
Guide Specification, and rod space sample, Note that the biggest guide they made is a "20" and the new set start with only a "16"
[www.fujitackle.com]
Low Rider accessories
[www.fujitackle.com]
Swivel System which is part of Low Rider Concept
[www.fujitackle.com]
Low Rider Surf Glove
[www.fujitackle.com]

Please note that this is surf rod we are talking here, sinker and weight are all above 60g or 2 oz to start with.

Warren, the lure Sergio is call the Rooster Ranger it is 3 oz solid, it is metal casting lure with a big feather tail. Base on the
kevlar Graphite construction, I do not think that is a Seeker equal. The conoflex site should give you some technical detail that
you can decide for yourself.

[www.conoflex.co.uk]

Good fishing (catching) <*)))))))><{

BTW, the Conflex site is great. Nice of them to list their spacings :) Would like to have seen the 306 yard cast. Would also like to see some pics of the rods especially the seat/grip setup.

Can the Low Rider setup be used with a Penn 850 on a 12' Seeker blank using 25 mono? Have any of you guys tried this?

In my guess, I would say it would not work great at all. Due to two main reason, the Penn's spool design and the diameter of the
mono. With 25 lb mono unless you are using DAM 's techtan it can get hard and with the spool spread like the penn and the
seeker's soft back you loss nearly all the benefit of the low riders except weight efficiency and line hugging of the blank. Not to mention if you also use a shock leader like a 100lb mono and not be able to fuse the two toghether (I said fues, not tie) In that area, tapered surf line or the use of cortland's Spectron will be the best way to do it.

Good fishing (catching) <*)))))))><{

The New Guide Concept System is NOT dependent upon any particular type or style of guide. According to Fuji, it may be, but we have learned that the concept can be implemented with any type and style guide provided it does what we are trying to achieve.

Many of us, myself included, have gone a bit beyond the original concept as originally instituted by Fuji. Limiting yourself to a particular guide style or series only restricts the wonderful results you can get once you realize that it is the concept, not the guides, that is important.

I applaud Fuji for their work in bringing us guides that help us to achieve the underlying principles of the concept, but it has been my experience so far, that strict adherence to the guide sizes, styles and placement as outlined on their web site will never allow you to take full advantage of what this concept offers. In fact, many people have been disappointed when they used Fuji's specs. They then came away saying that they had tried the "New Guide Concept" and found it lacking. Of course, they hadn't really tried the "Concept", just Fuji's implementation of it.

Once a builder understands what needs to be achieved, then he or she can utilize any guides, seats, reels, etc., that will allow the rod to reach its full potential under the concept. Those that do this continue to rave about the performance they get.

.....................

Tom;

I fully understand that this is why I am one of the few that actually have rod with many many different guide style and mount the
first guide backwards way back in 1985. Actually back then in 1990 I have first built a computer model on left over main frame
time and come up with my first (Old) new concept rod. I use HSVSG 25 as my first, then a SVSG16, SVSG10, the SG8 *5 to
get similar result with what Fuji has to offer now. And IMHO one have to fully understand why the guide was design first and
with one's limited resources, it is much better first understand others research before going out on a limp and waste time. Like all
research, one need to thoroughly understand the fundamentals first before exploring into the unknown.

Mike,

Low Rider will work for convention reels, except you may loose some of the benefit of weight saving.
The better choice of guide for convention casting rod will be the MNSG which give you a much higher guide to rod line lift, then
you might want to finish with LC guide at the top. a 12 foot set up in my opinion would be 8 guides with 4 LCSG at 10, 8, and
3*6 with MHSG 12, 10. This set up will eliminate ANY possible of wind knots with braid. With the 12 facing you (or mount
backward)

To following will who you the MNSG and some charts.

[www.fujitackle.com]

[www.fujitackle.com]

[www.fujitackle.com]

[www.fujitackle.com]
Please note those are not sinker casting rod specification, but lure casting rods!!

Dorge

I tried the Fuji charts and did not find their system much to my liking. The article in RodMaker and an earlier Tom did for the Rodcrafter Journal show a much better way to use the New Guide Concept.

On the surf rods I have built a #10 guide would never work. I have built enough to know that a #16 is minimum in order to pass the shock leader knots my customers most often use. Until you get away from the predetermined Fuji charts you will never know how good this system can work.