I had a problem with color preserver early in my rodbuilding, attributed to rushing. (when the rod got wet, ALL the guides became loose) I have not used CP since, and have not had that problem since

On a recent rod, I thought about Tom's words, "Color preserver is not the monster some try to make it", so on a whim, I applied Flex Coat color preserver. I let it dry for a day, and then I applied the epoxy, and let it cure for perhaps a week. PLENTY of time for everything to cure properly, right?

Well, a week or so later, I went fishing with this new rod. The rod looked and felt great. Then a big fish hit right next to the boat, and kept going, right under the boat! I jammed the entire rod underwater, to keep from breaking it on the corner of the boat. For the entire first run, perhaps five minutes, I sat there helpless with the rod buried in the water. Only when the fish slowed was I able to work the line around to the front of the boat, and get it free. Landed a 40" rockfish.

Anyway, two of the guides became loose! I couldn't believe it!!! NOT ONE of the rods without the CP has had a single guide loosen, and THIS rod gets wet once, and BOOM!

I hate color preserver. Yet another reason for me to make black on black rods... :-(

TH

I have used CP on nearly all my rods going back some 15 years and not once had a guide come loose or any other problem. Used Flex Coat brand for most of that time. So I can't really say what happened on your rod. My rods get fished by charter boat captains and crew in some very foul weather and there have been no unusual problems.

If color preserver was as bad as some make it out to be I don't think the companies could sell enough to keep it in their lines.

Another thing you want to watch out for is how well your finish seals the edges and into the tunnels of the wrap. If it is well sealed in those areas water should not be able to get into the wraps themselves. Just a thought.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't dried acrylic impervious to water?

Now for a different direction: In another craft, I've used clear acrylic tinted with various colors of ink as a wash (sort of an antiquing wash). Specifically, I used Future floor "wax." Since CP is clear acrylic (flex coat, anyway), couldn't you do the same thing with it - i.e. colored contrasting or complementing wash on second coat?

I'm going to try a test wrap with Future as CP & wash to see how it performs. I think it is pretty tough, yet flexible and thin so it should do ok.

I use color preserver on all my rods and have never had a problem. I'm careful not to extend the CP out past the edge of the wrap so when I apply the epoxy there is a good seal and I make sure the tunnels are sealed. Don't know what could have happened on your rod, may have been a tinny spot where water got under the epoxy.

HEY!!! I think I'm using a bad bottle of CP! I just did a test, where I applied some CP to a piece of cardboard last night and let it dry. Clear and shiny. Just now, I wet it, and it turned milky and gooey again!

THIS STUFF IS NOT CURING!

I am very careful to have my epoxy go beyond the ends of my wraps, and I fill the tunnels carefully. But even so, the epoxy always gets tiny cracks where the guide hits the blank, from flexing. I have noticed this on every used rod that has epoxy, factory or custom. I'm guessing that is where the water got in, and the CP went liquid from there.

I have not had a single problem with ANY of my rods that do not have the CP. Now I find out that this stuff is not curing, and is sabotaging my work. That makes me MAD! Does that mean that ALL the guides are going to eventualy fall off that rod like that first rod???

Now I REALLY hate Flex Coat C.P.!!!

TH

I used Flex Coat CP for many years without any problems. Thus it is hard for me to say just what is amiss with yours. Did you thin it? Put on multiple coats?

There is always the chance that you do have a bad batch, but it could also be something in your particular application technique that caused it.

If I was to run into something like this I think I'd make up some test wraps and try some different CP's and combinations of CP and epoxy and see what gave me the best results.

Just for the record, color preserver doesn't cure - it dries. Epoxy cures. Either way, if your's hasn't done so in a 24 hour period then something is certainly wrong.

....................

nomsg

Tom,

What I mean by "curing" is the chemical process where the substance changes into the final product permanently.

For instance, latex paint "dries" instead of "curing", but after it has dried for a certain period of time, it "cures" and no amount of water will return it to it's previous state. If you have ever tried getting dried latex paint out of your clothes, you know EXACTLY what I mean.

This CP of mine does not do that. It goes milky and soft the next day, after being dry and hard and pretty. Maybe you can do the test I did and see if yours is impervious to water after drying completely. I would really like to know if mine is a bad batch!

I did not apply two coats, I did not thin it, and it was not in humid conditions or anything.

TH

"Has it ever been frozen?"

I missed this question, but that is a VERY GOOD QUESTION!

I know that some paints and glues are ruined by freezing. Typically they will either "set" in the container, or separate. When you stir it back up, it looks good but will never cure.

THAT would fully explain my troubles, IF it applies to the CP! I keep mine on my desk and it has never been frozen since I've had it, and I bought it in the summertime, but that does not mean it was not frozen before I bought it.

THIS could perhaps be the reason otherhs have had so many problems! If that is the case, the makers would be wise to put big warning labels on the CP containers.

I am very anxious to hear the results of others trying to re-melt their CP after letting it dry for a day.

I'm starting to feel better, now that I have a better explanation to believe. Mine probably got frozen at some time.

TH

Most color preservers become worthless blobs of "rubber" once frozen. It is unlikely you could use it at all if it had been frozen at some point in the past.

Again, color preservers do not cure, they dry. There is no chemical reaction in a color preserver. You mostly have some solids residing in a carrier (usually a solvent which can be any number of things) . When the carrier evaporates, the solids are left behind in the thread. If a sufficient amount of solids have been left behind to occupy and seal the threads against further penetration, they will work as advertised. It is almost impossible to get dried CP to go back into solution with the addition of more carrier/solvent. (Water would be your "solvent" in this case.)

I have done some tests and never has water undermined my color preserver. Most will dry semi-hard yet very flexible. If your epoxy has been applied well, water should not be able to get to the color preserver to begin with. Also, epoxy is destroyed by submersion in water, although we are talking about a process that takes a very, very long time in most instances. There may be some that are impervious to prolonged use in water or moisture (I'm sure there must be) but those are out of my own limited field of knowledge in this regard.

I think what I would do is buy another bottle of CP and try it in some tests like that you have already performed. If you get the same result, try a different brand. Switch from the acrylic type you have now to one of the urethane/acrylic types and see if you like it better (I know I do). My personal preference in color preservers has always run to the urethane/acrylic types. CPX, SC215 and Gudebrod 811. (I think the new Clemens Brilliance is now of this type as well.) These are usually clear in the bottle rather than white as the Flex Coat variety. Just something you may want to consider.

................

Tony,

Please e-mail me when you have a chance.

Andy Snedden

Andy,
Will do! I just got your email! WOW! THANKS!!!


Tom,
I am going to give the Gudebrod 811 a shot. I've always had good success with their products.

A rodbuilding friend who examined my work tells me to throw that bottle away, and buy a fresh one. He says that he has seen bad bottles before, and not to worry about it, just replace it.

Sorry if I vented too much. I would put an "embarrassed" icon up if this board had that function!

TH

Everyone has had frustrating moments when they get upset because their hard work has been fouled up for one reason or another. It's understandable.

And your friend is correct. For what a bottle of CP costs, there is little sense in using something you think is suspect.

A side note - I mentioned that yesterday I had attended the Bass and Saltwater Expo in Greensboro, NC. One of the builders there was John Ballard, a custom builder from this area (He said I got him started on this foolishness about 3 years ago). He had plenty of rods on display and mentioned that the two best selling points he had were color preserver and the spiral wrap.

Color preserver because it made all his rods so bright and colorful compared to many of his competitor's rods. He said that many fishermen mentioned the difference to him and said they preferred some color to the rods. I asked him what he used and what kind of problems he might have had. He said he used Gudebrod 811 and had not had any problems.

Next was his demo with the spiral wrap on a vertical spine finder. I saw one of his assistants demo a couple rods to a prospective customer. There is no doubt, that a spiral wrapped rod sitting in a rack is just a gimmick. But take it out and show the fisherman the stability it provides compared to a guides-on-top rod and you have a believer.

..............

MYSTERY SOLVED

Check this out...

"Tony on your cp problem it may also be your cp was to old.
About a month ago I was digging around some old fishing stuff and found a bottle of unopened cp that I knew was at least 15 months old and it did exactly the things you said yours did.

I'm not an expert in the field, but.. my rods... one lasted 30 years."

What he is telling me is that he has used CP for 30 years with no problems, but this particular bottle did what mine has done.

I bought that particular bottle of CP from a shop that does not turn over much rodbuilding stuff. I would almost guarantee that it was well over a year old when I bought it.

Again, thank you! You guys are the BEST!

Tom, you have really outdone yourself with this place you have created. I really hope it is bringing you joy and profits. I have sent many people to this board, and I do so PROUDLY.

Thanks again for all the help.

TH

Joy and profits? No. But I am glad it is proving helpful to so many builders. That was the orignal and only intent.

Hope you have better luck on your next bottle of CP.

..............

Me too! I think the Gudebrod will work well.

And I have to eat my words, now! I have a beautiful blank and components on the way, and I have to quickly learn how to make a rod with style that compliments the fine materials! <GULP!>

TH

I have another possible reason for the failure of the guides. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you apply color preserver and get some on past the edge of the wrap and then after letting it dry put the finish on without completely covering the area on the edge that has the dried color preserver and then place it in water won't the water soluble color preserver allow the water to seepo in under the epoxy? Some else has explained this to me as an argument not to use color preserver so I figured that I would share it here. Tight Lines.

That is possible, althought I've been pretty careful since the first time it happened.

Just another reason for me to go to the Gudebrod! I've gotten a number of emails telling me that it is really good stuff, and is not water soluble after drying.

TH

I too have had problems with Flex coat color preserver and will not
use it. On the other hand I started with Gudebrod brand CP 35
years ago and am still fishing some of those early rods with no
problems! Gudebrod gets my vote.

John

Some CP's claim they can be frozen/thawed up to 3 times without effecting performance. I have had it freeze a couple times without any troubles(Brilliance),,But,it still should be avoided.