Is anyone aware of anything resembling a scientific test of the casting distance achieveable with single foot ceramic-type vs. snake guides? Scientific as in rods based on the same blanks with multiple casters and real measurements of cast distances. Thanks,

--Rich

They make almost no difference in casting distance. They make a ton of difference in longevity, less line wear and smoother drag payout.

.............

Rich,

To be honest with, I have spent a lot of time distance casting and training for it as well. I have not done any scientific testing, however, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the rod that recovers from the cast will go farther.

Example: Take two 9 foot 9 weight IMX's. One with single foot, lightweight guides, and the other with ceramics all the way up. The rod with the ceramics will not recover from the bend, (unload) as fast as the rod with singlefoot wire guides therefore the rod with the single foot fly guides wil cast further. The weight of the ceramics slow the unloading (unbending) of the rod considerably. (I still have absolutly no idea why builders put heavy ceramics all the way up the rod, maybe for durability who knows.)

That being said, I would also have to say that another factor to consider would depend on the type of line you are shooting; fly line runningline, braided mono, Ammnesia, Cobra, etc. But either way, I would lay my money down on single foot ti guides or wire guides.

I have never seen anyone showup at a casting event with ceramics on the rods, partly for the use of factory rod only in these type of events...usually.

Paul

I should have been more clear -- the comparison I was going for was single foot ceramic vs. traditional double foot snake guides.

Still good info, Paul, thanks.

--Rich

Paul, I think the reason that many custom fly rod builders put ceramics all the way up their rods is that they value the payoffs Tom mentions more than the payoff you mention. Personally, I don't care if my fly rod is capable of a 100 ft. cast versus a 95 foot cast. What I care about mostly is how enjoyable it is to fish with at 15-60 feet. It all depends on the characteristics you are trying to optimize I think.

Paul, what you say about blank recovery and casting distance makes perfect sense to me. And we know that the lightest guides and wraps optimize blank recovery. I also know that a lousy rod in the hands of a good caster (like you) can cast much farther than a great rod in the hands of a so-so caster (me) so in the big picture guide selection is the last thing most fly anglers need to worry about in their quest for distance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2006 03:00PM by Steve Kartalia.

Steve,

I see what you are saying when you mention about a 5 foot varience in distance...And, I would imagine that the ceramics would be more durable than "traditional" flyrod guides. But wouldn't the rod still be more enjoyable to fish 15-60 feet still with the single foot wire guides than the ceramics being it lighter and a bit more responsive?

The "average" fisher would may not notice the difference between the two rods with the diffenet guides. And you are so right whenyou say that a lousy rod in the hands of a good caster idea...you hit the nail on the head there!!! I once took a St. Croix, 175.00 rod and casted it against another makers new "$550" rod and made the high dollar rod maker weep. Not intentional, but that was just the outcome. That poor rep.!

But if Rich was going to build a rod for distance casting or distance fishing, (which we all know is hard to do in the freshwater) and showing up his buddies, I would still throw on single foots and not ceramic.

Rich,

Ya know like Tom may have said, the difference between the two may be off-set by each other. Example: Single foot ceramics would only require one set of wraps, and one application of finish. Then the double foot wire fly guides being lighter, but needing twice the thread and fisnish could be equal. And I have no experience that these guys in here do about the logical difference. But, this winter I will try and build two rods to tell the diff.

But the real test I would imagine, would be to see what guide has the LOWEST coeficient of friction. And...that would depend on the type of line for each type of guide. I hate to make this overly complicated, but trying to quantify it takes the "unknown" out of the tests results by "limiting the variables".

I hope this dumb firefighter didn't confuse ya....LOL

Respectfully,
Paul

Paul, I've spent a lot more hours on the water with wire guides than ceramic guides and never had any complaint. Only when I built and fished with ceramics did I choose to make those my default guides. I don't notice a difference in crispness when the rod is strung up and I'm fishing, but I do notice a slight difference when the rod is "naked". You're right, the tip does not damp quite as quickly. But, for me I like the trade off for the quieter and smoother line payout and I notice my $50 fly lines are lasting much longer than they used to. Yes, quieter. I never realized how much noise wire guides create compared to ceramics until I switched. I can only assume that's the noise of line-eating friction.

That said, if I ever wanted to build a rod to optimize casting distance, and felt that I was good enough at casting to not be the limiting factor, I would probably use single foot Recoils for the ultimate lightness and minimal effect on blank recovery. I don't see any reason to use a traditional snake guide except for if you prefer the aesthetics of them. And that is a perfectly good reason to use them as far as I'm concerned. To each his own, it's just a fishing rod. If I was all about performance, I would drag a seine through the river. I'm out there for a lot of other reasons.

Although wire guides are generally a bit lighter than ceramics don't assume that this is always true. As has been mentioned above thread and epoxy are a consideration in overall weight. Single foot wire guides even out the thread and epoxy factor but wire guide tip tops are sometimes heavier than ceramic tip tops. I have measured this on several occasions. The difference can be found in the longer barrel or tube on the wire tip tops. This tube can be shortened but if I were to use one ceramic guide it would be the tip top as it has the most effect on line wear.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Steve,

They are much quieter aren't they? It's amazing the difference bewtwen the two guides. Lines are lasting longer huh? I can see that due to the ceramic haveing more surface area and probably lower friction as well. And it's always nice when the $50.00+ lines last longer...you bring up some good points that I didn't think of Steve...it's always good to hear others views to learn from...life is good when we all can learn from each other!

Paul

Right on Paul, life is good. And Stan's points are good ones about tip top weight and how the best place to have some ceramic is on the tip. Even more than the stripper probably since the angle of the line is so steep there when the rod is under a load. All my favorite rods have #6 ceramic guides and the threads are finished in 3-4 coats of either Permagloss or Gudebrod 822 rod varnish. Still a hint of thread texture left on the wrap and minimal extra weight. I feel this largely compensates weight-wise for wire guides and thicker epoxy finish, even when I use the inexpensive Alconite or Forecast H-ring fly guides. Several of my rods have a single foot ceramic guide instead of a tube-type tip top. Additional weight savings in the most critical location on the rod. The fish don't give a damn of course but I think I'm very clever : ) even though these are all tricks I learned from hanging out on this board.

Good night from Maryland - gonna drink another homebrew and go to bed.

You bet ya...the guys and gals on this board are second to none! I too have learned SOOOOO from both the ole' salts and the newbies!

Paul

Hm, I think the type of cast is important here too...

I find that with a straight overhead cast, I run about the same, maybe a couple percent further with ceramics.

But when I'm doing casts that are based on water tension to load the rod (spey, roll, and whatever variations you can think up), the ceramics shoot out line MUCH better...as in a 10-15% difference.

For what that's worth.



Scott Kinney
The Longest Cast Fly Rods
[www.thelongestcast.com]