Ed Kindervater said, "denatured alcohol is the only solvent you need to use in rod building." Do I need to use M. E. K. to clean my brushes? Is there something less dangerous that will do the job? I will do a search in the meantime. Thanks

Well, it has been a long time since I messed around with chemistry, so can't give you a technical answer. But, I can tell you what works for me. I use isopropyl alcohol for everything, including brush cleaning. So far, no problems at all.
I wipe the brush down after using it for applying epoxy thread finish to long areas (use a spatula for guide wraps). Then, I stick it in a test tube (actually, a glass cigar holder) filled about half way with the stronger IPA. I use both 70% and 91%, the weaker stuff on blanks, the stronger stuff to clean brushes. I let it set about 3-4 hours, take it out, dry it off, and it is as good as new.
Steve Broadwell

Bruce that question is kinda like throwing a lit firecracker in the middle of a crowd. Anyone who uses a "one liner" to catagorize cleaners, thinners, solvents and coupling agents used in rodbuilding may cause someone else some problems. Your post on brush cleaners did not mention the finish by name, the number and kind of brushes you use, the size and environment of your shop, your basic safety standards or the other tasks you include in "everything". The best thing in your post implied that you were concerned and that you would do a "search". Internet chat board answers to this type of question probably will not contain the type of information or the detail you are seeking. The first page of OSHA regulations makes it very clear that YOU are ultimately responsible for your own personal safety.

As far as the denatured alcohol goes is was ONE of the things in a long series of things that almost put a stop to my rodbuilding. I build a lot of rods in a tiny poorly ventilated work space - used Rod Bond to lay up rods five at a time - carelessly slopped on two part epoxy adhesive and wiped off excess with paper towells soaked in denatured alcohol with no gloves - threw the alcohol soaked epoxy containing paper towells in a five gallon bucket under my workbench - floor heaters -no air movement - vapours from paper towells all around legs - Over a period of months developed a rash and sensitivity to amine hardners in finish and adhesives.

The products that we all use can be handled safely and it is the responsibility of all to be sure that what they are using is used in the correct manner.

Gon Fishn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2006 12:27PM by Bill Stevens.

Well, Bill, I use Crystal Coat Finishfrom Clemen's Custom Tackle in PA, whcih is where I live. I was using a sable brush, but I have a mess of Flexcoat purple and yellow brushes, too. I live in an apartment and build on my kitchen table. I've probably only built 4 fly rods this year and I'd like to to do 2 or 3 more before Christmas. I guess I have no safety standards that's why I'm wondering if it would be better to limit my chemicals to isopropyl alcohol and the finish. My buddy uses M. E. K. to clean his brushes and it does work, but I was thinking alcohol, if it works to clean brushes, wouldn't be as bad to get on my hands or inhale.

Clemens shut down several years ago.

................

Bruce,

Don't know your buddy, but I wouldn't have MEK in my shop, let alone my living quarters. Personally, I have never seenanything in rod building that required more than denatured alcohol.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Bruce,
Many of these solvents can be used safely, but all of the ones mentioned should not be inhaled. Acetone and ketone are very goos solvents, but they are very volatile and must be used in a well-ventilated area only. When I use these solvents, I only use them on my back deck or in my garage where I do all of my wood working. In this case I also keep both garage doors open. IPA and denatured alcohol must also be treated with respect. Very often the compounds used to denature alcohol are quite dangerous. For example, methyl alcohol is often used to denature ethyl alcohol. Xylene is also a solvent that can be used, but it too should only be used in a ventilated area. I use Xylene to clean brushed when using PermaGloss since PG contains Xylene. Denatured alcohol seems to be a good solvent for epoxy finishes and for Rod Bond. We must always be careful when using these chemicals.

A few years ago, my wife and I were doing some remodeling of our home in Michgan before selling it and retiring back in the west. This work included some painting. Despite my background in chemistry, I became tired of climbing up and down the ladder and stuck a rag saturated with paint thinner in the waist band of my shorts and when I took a shower that evening, I discovered a large welt where the paint thinner had come in contact with my skin. It was not serious, but it reminded me to remain alert when using these organic solvents.

Mike Blomme

Kitchen - wife - kids - other people - storing stuff - have extra brushes - why bother to clean?

This is the site that you can get information on chemicals.

[www.epa.gov]

Gon Fishn

Bruce - I can't remember what I used to use on my own sable brushes when I used to use the Crystal Coat, but I would think that among the choices of 70% IPA or 91% IPA or De-NA, they should get your brushes clean before you have to resort to MEK. Try the 91% IPA if the De-NA is not available. If you have to use MEK, it won't kill you if you use it properly.

Quantity of solvent used; the quality of the ventilation in your room & apartment; and the length of time of your exposure and the frequency of exposure are the main issues involved. Short exposure to very high levels of solvents may be worse than longer exposures to lower levels. There is not much value in making too comprehensive a generalization on exposure, ... Other than to say that MINIMIZING EXPOSURE TIME & CONCENTRATION is VERY IMPORTANT.

If you are getting a headache, or vaguely dizzy, or your mental acuity goes adrift, you may be inhaling too much. If you can SMELL IT, you are inhaling it. ... Keep your alcohol-soaked waste paper towels in a covered waste can, or in a heavy-duty gallon size re-sealable plastic bag. Use a metal coffee can & lid for the MEK or Acetone. If the solvent sits on paper in an open container, the solvents will continue to EVAPORATE and FILL the ROOM after you are done with them.

I recently had gotten lazy with my own advice, and had not been closing my rag bag. A little headache the next morning reminded me that in my small, 2-room apartment, the IPA in the living room doesn't have far to go to reach my head on the pillow, 15 feet away. ... B)- ... -Cliff Hall.

MEK is serious stuff. Outside of aircraft maintenance, I don't know what this stuff is good for, that milder stuff can't do. Personally, as far as rodbuilding goes, if IPA can't clean it, I throw it away. The max I will go is Acetone based nail polish remover (which does work well), and I'm moving away from that. Even ignoring the health effects, the flash point of MEK and/or Acetone is on par with blinking your eye in a static electricity environment.

I've been playing with mineral spirits, which is my normal "thinner" for woodworking, and the jury is still out but almost a moot point as generally if I'm using brushes, I use throw aways because I build rods in my home rather than a separate shop. Cleaning brushes isn't worth the hazards, to me. I generally use a spatula type applicator for epoxy and cheap brushes for permagloss (just bought 60 brushes for 5 bucks to resupply).

Thinning epoxy isn't an option for me. If you want thinner epoxy, just apply less. It isn't a hard concept. If you are really wanting to just drive out bubbles and don't like CP or the maintenance of epoxy, use permagloss.

Some folks use a high dollar brush to apply epoxy, and with cleaning, have used the same brush for years. I've found that you can apply epoxy with ANYTHING with great results, if you apply it correctly. Good technique gives good results... without good technique, it doesn't matter what the quality is of what you are using.

My advice.. especially if you are building in your dining room... don't even THINK about using MEK. Get a stick in your front yard and just do it right.

Thanks for the advice, guys! I guess my initial question is will denatured alcohol be enough to clean a brush. The spatula idea intrigues me, but I haven't a clue how that might work. Is there a tutorial somewhere I can learn from? Also, I was wondering about chemicals (M.E.K.) because I do work in a small apartment and winter is coming, which means I won't be able to open the doors and windows.

Bruce, unless you are certain you have all of tthe kids that you want, keep them MEK out of a closed up apartment. Go to any craft store or wallyworld and get a pack of a about 25 craft paint brushes for about 3 bucks and throw them away after each use. Why bother? better yet, go to McDonalds and pick up a bunch of great epoxy spatula's/mixers (sometimes mistakingly referred to as coffee stirrers (go figure). Like Mick said, it's not what you use but how you use it.



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I will, Mike! I guess with a brush or spatula you get a big glob on and just drop it on the guidewrap and them wick off the eess?

Flex Coat sells an Epoxy Brush Cleaner.

Bruce,
A recent issue of Rodmaker had a very detailed article on a foolproof procedure to get perfect finishes every time! It' easier than you think!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Hi Mike! I forgot I have that very issue. It is excellent and I will study it again. Mentally, I'm to the point when I get stressed when I have to finish a rod. It seems that the guidewrap finish is fine. It's the signature spot that gives me the trouble with uneven fnish, dust, bubbles, etc.